"Once Saved, Always Saved"

...The early Church knew that most of the warnings given throughout Scripture were not relevant to salvation by grace through faith, but rather, reigning with Christ in The 1,000-year Kingdom. Belief in a literal Millennium continued for several centuries after the apostles. "This view was widely held in the Early Church and was expounded by the Church fathers Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1993, "Millennium"). Origen was the first person on record to promote the allegorical explanation and Augustine (354-430), who originally believed in a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ, identified the Church with the Kingdom of God and maintained that the millennial age had already come. He advanced the theory that the millennium had actually begun with Christ's nativity...

When God, subsequent to revealing "Israel is my son, even my firstborn", decreed that "all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die", The passover lamb was then given to "all the congregation of Israel" and "the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel" were to kill the passover lamb "in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses", concerning which blood, God proceeded to state,"when I see the blood, I will pass over you" "And the children of Israel went away, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they" then, only after they had applied the blood by faith, "it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt" and "all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

...There was a land out before them, but many of them fell in the wilderness, on the right side of the blood, though short of the goal of their calling...

In like manner, God has decreed that "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and "the wages of sin is death", hence, "it is appointed unto men once to die" and "Christ our passover" who was "not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" was crucified by "all the house of Israel" (as is stated by Peter: "all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" Acts 2:36) and in the evening He "yielded up the ghost" on "about the ninth hour" (3:00 PM Roman time). Therefore, because "the wages of sin is death" and because "it is appointed unto men once to die", "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many". In other words, And as it is appointed unto men once to die (because they have sinned), but after this the judgment: (in this manner, thus) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many (even though He had not sinned, because His death was substitutionary). Death has occurred, blood was shed, "the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot". Accordingly, an individual today, can elect to either keep this appointment with death themselves, or to apply the Blood, by faith, of the Lamb Who has kept the appointment on their behalf, because "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again". The firstborn must die, one way or the other. Then, only after an individual has applied the blood by faith and they "who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ", is the individual to go out from the land of Egypt and to be buried in the Red Sea and to be raised on the eastern shore to walk in newness of life with a goal out ahead, there is "a better country, that is, an heavenly" to which the "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" are called and if we are "children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together", for "Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory". The sufferings proceeded the glory, therefore, Christ, "for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame", likewise, "unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake", "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution", so, we are to "rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy", because, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him", but "if we deny him, he also will deny us", so it is manifest that we are to "continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God". This is why "Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus" can say "unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ", "we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer". Further, we are beseeched to "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called" and in relation to "all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God", because "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God", futhermore, "ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory", Who, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal (aiōnas) salvation unto all them that obey him", so, "if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings", therefore, "Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" and as it is promised, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".

 

Kevin, I followed you through the first paragraph of your response and I thought I knew where you were going with this. However, I lost you when you got into the wilderness, so could you tell me in two or three sentences what you are trying to say in your post?

 

...The application of The Blood is relevant to salvation by grace through faith, which is a gift imparted to an individual while that individual is "dead in trespasses and sins" and it is based solely upon the work of another (Christ). Once an individual has applied The Blood, salvation by grace through faith remains the present and continuous possession of that individual...

...The Inheritance is relevant to reigning with Christ during The Messianic Era, which is a reward that may or may not be imparted to an individual who has already "passed from death unto life" and it is based upon the work of the saved individual. This Inheritance is a Hope, consequently it is not the present possession of the believer, rather, its reception, or lack thereof, is placed, in its entirety, at a future date...

...If I get banned from the board for stating this, then so be it...

 

Millennial exclusionist?

 

This view is erroneus for a number of reasons.

1. It assumes Heaven - where God's throne is - is NOT part of God's kingdom.

2. It declares "the Kingdom by works" and "heaven by grace". AS IF that is ever taught in scripture.

3. It ignores things like Matt 18 where we see "forgiveness revoked". Forgiveness revoked does not work in your favor either for the Millennium or in heaven.

4. it takes all the perseverance texts of the Bible labels them as "works not grace" and declares salvation apart from perseverance found in scripture, apart from the Kingdom of God, apart from the 2nd coming.

All of that is problematic for the Bible student.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. It assumes Heaven - where God's throne is - is NOT part of God's kingdom.

...I don't believe that...

"The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul" (Psalm 103:19-22)

2. It declares "the Kingdom by works" and "heaven by grace". AS IF that is ever taught in scripture.

...It's all of Grace. Grace brings us into a position to where we who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ and can bring forth fruit. The former has NOTHING to do with our works and the latter is ONLY made possible through the finished work of Christ...

3. It ignores things like Matt 18 where we see "forgiveness revoked". Forgiveness revoked does not work in your favor either for the Millennium or in heaven.

...Question: Why does John state "If we (Christians) confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us (Christians) our sins, and to cleanse us (Christians) from all unrighteousness"...

"And Aaron and his sons you shall bring to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall wash (Septuagint = "louseis" a one time complete bathing of the entire body before entering the priesthood) them with water" (Exodus 29)

"For Aaron and his sons shall wash (Septuagint = "nipsetai" a continuous washing of parts of the body extending the full duration of their priesthood) their hands and their feet thereat" (Exodus 30)

...Answer: "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed (Perfect Tense: "leloumenos" having been completely washed) needeth not save to wash (Aorist Tense and Infinitive: "nipsasthai" to wash a part of the body) his feet, but is clean every whit"...

4. it takes all the perseverance texts of the Bible labels them as "works not grace" and declares salvation apart from perseverance found in scripture, apart from the Kingdom of God, apart from the 2nd coming.

...Salvation apart from perseverance? YES. For by grace are ye saved [you have been saved in past time with the results of this action extending into the present and existing in a finished state with persistent results during present time of the past completed work so that the present results of the past action can only continue unchanged forever] through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8,9)

 

The church I attend believes in OSAS. I still struggle with it, but am trying to learn. here's my thoughts on this.

I have read the scriptures both for and against, and both have valid points. However, m struggle is with people who say "They were never saved at all if they fall away." Here's a example of why I feel that way.

A man is a preacher, who has served God for 15 yrs. he lives a holy life, has brought many to Christ, etc. He loses a child in a car accident, gets angry with God, quits believeing, preaching ect. Going back and considering his good works, who can really say he was/wasn't saved? I think we are leaving the human aspect out of it. People can and do have the free will to change thier minds. We accept Christ out of free will, so how can we say we can't stop believing out of free will? For example- I have faith that my husband will be the provider and and cherish me all his days. He loves me and I love him dearly. After many years of marriage, he becomes abusive, and divorces me. Does that mean he never loved me? That we were never married? He made the choice to stop loving me.

Maybe I am confused, I don't know, like I said, I am still learning.

 

Remember this one thing, one cannot stop believing that which they have absolute knowledge of is true. They can say they do not believe, maybe out of anger towards God, but be found a liar if they know it is truth.

Being a true Christian is not having a religion. It is knowing Jesus Christ in a personal way through regeneration. The Holy Spirit and the child become one, a new creature.

Sorry I don't have time right now for all the scripture references to this. But understand "born-again" and you will understand OSAS.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Hi Lyndie,

You are correct. The problem in discussing OSAS is that both sides are not on the same page. Those that believe OSAS will usually use verses from John 10 among others for support.

John 10:26-29 ( KJV ) 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

The problem is these verses are stating that the ones believing will never perish. As you have pointed out, the real question that needs to be asked in regard to OSAS, is can someone believe at some point and then choose not to believe? Scripture is clear on this point.


John 8:31 ( KJV ) 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


Colossians 1:21-23 ( KJV ) 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


John 15:6 ( KJV ) 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


Luke 8:13 ( KJV ) 13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.


Hebrews 6:4-6 ( KJV ) 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Hebrews 10:26-29 ( KJV ) 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Hebrews 10:38 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


Hebrews 12:25 ( KJV ) 25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

2 Peter 2:1 ( KJV ) 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Revelation 3:5 ( KJV ) 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So, the implication here is that some will be blotted out. Since the book of life only contains believers who will be blotted? Jesus says that He who overcomes will not be blotted out. Who is he that overcomes? John tells us,


1 John 5:5 ( KJV ) 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So since some names will be blotted out and John says that the overcomer is the believer, it follows that the one who doesn't overcome does not believe. Yet he had to believe at some point for His name to be written in the book of life.


Revelation 22:19 ( KJV ) 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

There are many more but I think this is sufficient to make the point. A person CAN choose to believe and then later choose NOT to believe.

 

you described the Arminian position perfectly! Welcome aboard -- I too am on that train.

The Arminian view has the following

1. God so LOVED THE WORLD "yes really" John 3:16
2. WHOSOEVER belives may be saved John 3 - "yes anyone"
3. God DRAWS ALL unto Him -- John 12:32 -- " yes really ALL".
4. ONLY The FEW will be saved Matt 7 -- "Not because God failed to draw them"
5. FORGIVENESS REVOKED is a a "real" problem to avoid as Jesus said in MAtt 18.

6. Being removed from the vine of Christ is a real problem to avoid according to John 15:1-6

7. some have "been severed from Christ" and have "Fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4. "For real".

8. The Romans 11 warning is real where Paul says "you should FEAR for you stand only by your faith -- and if He did not spare them neither will he spare you... but He is able to graft THEM in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief".

9. The 1Cor 9 statement of Paul is "real" and applies to Gospel salvation
"I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified".

It is all "true" -- and that is shocking to the group that holds to OSAS "instead".

in Christ,

Bob

 

..."Hope"...This is not even speaking of salvation by grace through faith which is the present possession of the believer, but, rather, a Hope which may or may not be realized...

...This passage has to do with fruit bearing or lack thereof after an individual has been eternally saved...

10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

...This is relative to The Kingdom, NOT salvation by grace through faith...

...This is relative to Christians who have come into a mature knowledge surrounding the land out before them, have tasted the fruits thereof and have then turned their backs on it, seeking to elect a new ruler and go back to Egypt...They will fall in the wilderness because God will not let them enter after this has occurred and He will not repent (change His mind)...

...The knowledge spoken of here is a mature knowledge (epignōsin) and mirrors the warning given in Hebrews 6:4-6...

...This is in relation to the saving of ones life here and the losing of ones life during The Kingdom or vice-versa, NOT salvation by grace through faith...

CONTEXT:
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat (through feeding his flesh) sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

This mirrors the warnings given in Hebrews 6:4-6 & 10:26-29 and is relative to an inherited salvation (one must be a family member first because inheritance as seen in scripture is always a family matter).

Numbers 27
8And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter.
9And if he have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren.
10And if he have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his father's brethren.
11And if his father have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his kinsman that is next to him of his family, and he shall possess it: and it shall be unto the children of Israel a statute of judgment, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Romans 8
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

...Inheritance as seen in scripture is also referred to as a reward (not a gift)...

Colossians 3
23And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

...Notice also that just as the engrafted word is able to save your souls/life [psychē] (James 1:21), it is also able to give you an inheritance...

Acts 20
32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

...Keep reading...

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge (epignōsei : mature knowledge ie. the knowledge surrounding the reason why a person has been saved. ie. the land out ahead after that the blood has been applied) of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known (epegnōkenai: had attained a mature knowledge, ie. having had tasted the fruits of the land, then to seek to elect a new ruler and turn back to Egypt) the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Seems the Apostle Paul believed in OSAS.
The problem believing otherwise does away with grace and discipline.
Grace is unmerited favor. When we are saved we are 100% forgiven and it is the Blood of Jesus Christ which cleanses us from all unrighteousness. To believe otherwise is a works based salvation. Does the Blood of Christ ever lose it's power? The blood of animals did because there was a remembrance every year that it was time to offer a sin sacrifice, but once Jesus came and offered His Blood as a sacrifice, the sacrificial work was finished.
To believe in OSAS requires faith. Something the Bible says we are saved by through grace. It means as Paul stated above, He is able.
He loves me, He keeps me, and He disciplines me. When someone confesses and falls away, as a OSAS believer asserts, he was never saved to begin with. The scripture backs this up, as well.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
The Spirit is the birthright of every believer and a true believer will not blaspheme and curse the Lord and void their salvation. Err yes, but become unsaved, no.

 

Hi Cutter,

As I stated above, it is not about whether or not God is able. He is able. It is about wether or notwe continue in Him. Look at the verse you quoted,

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Yes God is able. However look who committed it to God. Paul says that God is able to keep that which PAUL had COMMITTED unto him.

Also consider your statement here.

Never saved to begin with?

Hebrews 10:26-29 ( KJV ) 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

this individual was saved and lost.

Luke 8:13 ( KJV ) 13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus said they believed for a while and fell away.

 

You wouldn't happen to be a Calvinist would you? I have seen several of these attempts before, however you do have some new ones. I don't know where you get these ideas. Is it because you are trying to force these Scriptures into a Calvinist framework.

 

5th point of Calvinism (Perseverance of the Saints)
"Believers are kept in faith and grace by the unconquerable power of God till they come to glory."

5th point of Arminianism (Falling from Grace)
"It rests with believers to keep themselves in a state of grace by keeping up their faith; those who fail here fall away and are lost."

...There is truth in both of these two conflicting arguments. The problems arise when one fails to distinguish between the salvation which is the present possession of every believer and the salvation to be revealed. The prior, bringing ones spirit into a living state, so that one can receive the spiritually discerned Word of God with a goal out ahead and the latter being relative to realising an Inheritance in the land with Christ as His Bride for a thousand years when He comes to establish His Kingdom...

"If we suffer [lit., 'patiently endure'], we shall also reign with him: if we deny him [relative to patient endurance, i.e., if we do not patiently endure], he also will deny us [relative to His reign, i.e., we will not reign with Him]."

...Reference: "Once Saved, Always Saved" Post #41...

...No...

 

Amen. You only reinforce my statement. Paul had committed the keeping of his soul and salvation into the Hands of God, since He is able!

Having no root signifies the Word did not take root in their heart. They had an artificial confession and faith that is why they fell away.

 

Hi Cutter,

I think you miss my point, it was Paul who committed to God. Had Paul not committed it to God, God would not have kept it

Is it your contention that Jesus did not know who truely believed? Jesus says
they believed for a while, yet when temptation came they fell away.

Also notice the Hebrews verses, here is it stated that this person was sanctified by the blood of Christ. A person cannot be sanctified by the blood of Christ and not have salvation.

 

Truly believing and Jesus saying they believed for a while are two different things.

If believing is all that is required for salvation then the devils could be saved.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The Hebrews verse is premised with the word "if."
What if does not necessarily imply something as possible. We can sit and play the what if game all day. Paul is simply signifying the superiority and the importance of the Blood of Christ sacrifice over the weaker and inferior blood of bullocks and goats sacrifice.

 

Do you have any Scripture to back this statement?

Can you show two salvation's from Scripture?

Scripture please.

There is but one salvation.

Ok, I don't see where in post 41 you speak of the idea of two salvations.

Are you a Primitive Baptist?

 

You didn't answer my question. Is it your contention that Jesus did not know who truely believed?

Even though the Hebrews verses are premised with the word "if"Paul is saying "if" you turn away. You say "what if" doesn't necessarily imply something is possible, that is correct. However, after making the statement in Hebrews 10:26-29, Paul says,


Hebrews 10:35 ( KJV ) 35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward.

This does mean that it is possible. Paul also goes on to say,


Hebrews 10:38 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Paul says "if any man draw back" "my soul" shall have no pleasure in him. This shows that it is possible for a man to draw back.

But even if you don't want to acknowledge these verses there are many more.

How about this one?


Mark 9:30-31 ( KJV ) 30And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it. 31For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 9:43-50 ( KJV ) 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Here we have Jesus talking to His disciples. Notice He says if "thy" hand offend thee, if "thy " foot offend thee, if "thine" eye offend thee. Here Jesus is definitely referencing the disciples, he is telling them (the disciples) it is better for them to enter eternal life maimed than to go into hell. Jesus is saying this to Peter and John and Matthew, etc. I don't think there is any question as to whether or not they were saved.