ONE Gospel or Two? In all of time.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Hebrews 4 tells us that the GOSPEL was preached to us JUST as it was to them (Israel in the wilderness) also.

    1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.




    The Gal 1:6-11 ONE Gospel in all ages.

    Galatians 3 says the "Gospel was preached to Abraham"

    1Cor 10 says they "all drank from the same spiritual ROCK (PETRA) and that Rock was Christ".

    So what say you? ONE Gospel or two?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. TrevorL

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    Greetings Bob,

    I was a little puzzled by your post as I could not understand exactly what you were attempting to convey. When I read it I assumed that it was in response to some discussion in another thread. You did not get a response, so I am not sure if you want to discuss what you have said from a different perspective.
    I agree that there is only ONE Gospel. Of the three major things you have stated, your position as an SDA seems to be vulnerable. You speak of one gospel, but Paul uses this term in Galatians 1:1-9 to speak against the addition of the Law with respect to these Gentile believers on top of the gospel. You quote from Galatians 3:8 and this chapter also clearly states that the Law was added as a temporary measure. Abraham believed the gospel and was saved without the addition of the Law. Also you quote from Hebrews 4, but this clearly explains the true meaning of the Sabbath, contrary to the way in which SDAs apply this teaching.

    Perhaps also on another aspect, I believe that the SDAs have a wrong view of the gospel of the Kingdom of God. They preach that the world will be desolate during the 1000 years, while the Scriptures teach that Jesus is to return to refresh and restore and to reign upon the earth during the 1000 years.
    Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    one gospel truth, that ANy sinner ever been saved was By the grace of the Cross alone, received thru faith alone, but that was administered under law in old covenant, but now under grace in the New!
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Salvation by works is "another Gospel" if you claim that the first 4000 years of history was a gospel of works - then you are teaching two gospels - not one.

    Paul says in Gal 1:6-11 there is only ONE Gospel and in Heb 4:2 HE says it was preached to Israel in the OT. Then in Heb 11 a whole list of saints - some of them going to heaven without dying.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Hello Trevor -

    How so?


    Law is not a means of salvation as Paul points out in Galatians 3 - and it never was. Those who claim that the Law was saving people in the OT but now Grace does it - are preaching a two-gospel solution that Paul did not endorse.


    Nothing in Hebrews 4 negates the 4th commandment. In fact Paul does not add one single thing to what David was preaching in Ps 95:7. Paul simply points out that the same condition remains for the saints as we see in Psalms 95 long before the cross.

    No Bible scholars today suppose that in Ps 95 the actual weekly cycle ended or that the 4th commandment could be ignored or Sabbath ignored etc.

    I think we all agree on that.


    That is a great topic but it is off the topic of this thread. I am going to quote your statement above and start a new thread on the Millennium if you don't mind having a thread dedicated to your point above.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=85953

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Apr 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2013
  6. TrevorL

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    Greetings again Bob,
    I agree with your comments. What I was suggesting from Galatians 3 is that the Law was added, and now it is removed. We are no longer under the Law, the schoolmaster.
    Galatians 3:19-25 (KJV): 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    What I was suggesting or perhaps interested in is that I believe that this section of Hebrews is teaching the true meaning of the Sabbath by comparison to the shadow under the Law. Part of this is that the Sabbath pointed forward to the 1000 years of rest in the future kingdom:
    Hebrews 4:1 (KJV): Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    Hebrews 4:6 (KJV): Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
    Hebrews 4:8-9 (KJV): 8 For if Jesus (Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest
    (mg keeping of a Sabbath) to the people of God.
    This rest or keeping of a Sabbath is the future 1000 years, not the weekly Sabbath under the Law.

    Also the true spiritual lesson of ceasing from manual labour one day per week was to teach the lesson of ceasing from our own works at all times:
    Hebrews 4:10 (KJV): For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

    The true rest is in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Servant of God. We need to cease from the works of sin and learn to be yoked with Christ in true service as we walk towards the final rest in the kingdom.
    Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Hello Trevor -

    Galatians 3 makes it clear that for each person the Law is active and alive condemning them and showing them to be in need of salvation. But "when faith comes" to the lost and they believe in Christ - the Law no longer serves that function.

    For the saved saint - the born-again experience writes the "Law of God on the heart and mind" Heb 8 (Jer 31:31-33). It is the same law that the Baptist Confession and the Westminster confession speak about - the moral law - the TEN Commandments - but it is written on the heart.

    The Law external only on tables of stone - can only condemn the lost. But that Jer 31:31-33 Law of God - internal written on the heart of the born-again saint will cause that saint to do as Paul stated in Romans 6 - to reject sin (and John says in 1John 3:4 that sin IS transgression of the Law).

    In Romans 8 Paul insists that the born again saints will "By the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh".

    And so in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

    And in Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

    Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth - "ALL mankind will come before ME to worship".

    Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    The animal sacrifice based annual Sabbaths pointed forward to the death of Christ "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed" 1Cor 5.

    And when the event took place - then as Hebrews 10 states - those sacrifices ended.

    In Ps 95:7 "TODAY if you harden not your heart" is the only thing Paul appeals to in Heb 4 - and Paul argues it is the same appeal to "Sabbath rest" as was made long before the cross - in Ps 95:7.

    IF the claim is that not until the millennium will that Sabbath shadow be fulfilled - then we are under it - until the Millennium.

    But in Is 66:23 find that even in the NEW earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath" God says "All mankind shall come before ME to Worship". So no speculation there - the Sabbath remains long after the millennium. And exegesis on that text demands that we use Jeremiah's context for "From Sabbath to Sabbath" as a the same time-based weekly cycle as was in the Ten Commandments of his day.




    Paul's argument in Heb 4 is from Ps 95 and NOT to some event since that time. He argues we are still under that condition however you wish to view it. That is a problem for the argument that the Ps 95:7 teaching nullifies the Ten Commandment Sabbath - because it is clear that even for David himself writing the Ps 95:7 statement - it did not void the 4th commandment.

    According to the Baptist Confession, R.C Sproul, D.L. Moody et al. the Ten Commandments were in place from Eden until today and even for the saints they apply. They are not making that claim because they are Seventh-day Adventists. I think we all agree on that part.

    In Rev 14:12 the saints "keep the Commandments of God".

    No question that under the ONE Gospel of Heb 4:2 this was the promised rest in all ages. No change from Ps 95 to today. Nor does Paul say in Heb 4 "now that Christ has died we may enter that rest so long waiting" nor does Ps 95 say "Some day many centuries from today - harden not your heart".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Apr 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2013
  9. Yeshua1

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    jesus kept ALl the law, so that we are saved now of god, and we walk int he Spirit, and thus will be pleasing to God!
     
  10. BobRyan

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    "By the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8 - we don't excuse them.

    Possibly we all agree on that.

    Do we also agree in 1John 3?

    ============

    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
    12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

    Here then is yet another chapter of the book of 1John getting ignored in the modern popular pulpits. And yet the Baptist Confession of 1689 would seem to strongly endorse this part of scripture.

    So also C.H. Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, D.L. Moody, Andy Stanley and others.


    in Christ,


    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Apr 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2013
  11. Yeshua1

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    Do you hold to us attaining sinless perfection in orsder to be saved in the end by God?
     
  12. BobRyan

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    I hold that 1John 3 teaches that the saved do not sink to the lowest standard - but they are raised to the highest. And John often contrasts that to the case of the lost as we see contrasted in 1John 2:3-6.

    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
    12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
     
  13. TrevorL

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    Greetings again Bob,
    Paul speaks of the failure of the generation that came out under Moses, and states that they failed to enter the land, and thus obtain the rest promised in the land. He also speaks of the generation that entered the land under Joshua, and even this generation failed to obtain the true rest. Note this generation would have kept the weekly Sabbaths, but Paul states that the Joshua generation did not obtain the desired rest. So Paul is speaking of the ultimate rest, that is the 1000 years rest that the faithful will obtain when Jesus returns.

    The promised rest is in the land, and the promise was given to Abraham and his seed:
    Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
    Galatians 3:8 (KJV): And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    Galatians 3:16 (KJV): Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV): 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Paul is not speaking of the weekly Sabbath when he quotes Psalm 95:7, but the future rest in the land promised to Abraham and his seed during the 1000 years.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Hello Trevor -

    A brief restatement for context -

    The animal sacrifice based annual Sabbaths pointed forward to the death of Christ "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed" 1Cor 5.

    And when the event took place - then as Hebrews 10 states - those sacrifices ended.

    In Ps 95:7 "TODAY if you harden not your heart" is the only thing Paul appeals to in Heb 4 - and Paul argues it is the same appeal to "Sabbath rest" as was made long before the cross - in Ps 95:7.

    IF the claim is that not until the millennium will that Sabbath shadow be fulfilled - then we are under it - until the Millennium.

    But in Is 66:23 find that even in the NEW earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath" God says "All mankind shall come before ME to Worship". So no speculation there - the Sabbath remains long after the millennium. And exegesis on that text demands that we use Jeremiah's context for "From Sabbath to Sabbath" as a the same time-based weekly cycle as was in the Ten Commandments of his day.

    Paul's argument in Heb 4 is from Ps 95 and NOT to some event since that time. He argues we are still under that condition however you wish to view it. That is a problem for the argument that the Ps 95:7 teaching nullifies the Ten Commandment Sabbath - because it is clear that even for David himself writing the Ps 95:7 statement - it did not void the 4th commandment.

    According to the Baptist Confession, R.C Sproul, D.L. Moody et al. the Ten Commandments were in place from Eden until today and even for the saints they apply. They are not making that claim because they are Seventh-day Adventists. I think we all agree on that part.

    In Rev 14:12 the saints "keep the Commandments of God".


    Indeed. All those 40 and upward died and those under 40 lived and entered Canaan.

    Then Paul goes on to mention the OT saved saints of Heb 11 from all ages.

    His "one Gospel" model of Gal 1:6-11 is working and the "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also" stands up.

    I agree. Moses, David, Abraham, Samuel, all of them would have kept the Ten Commandments including the Sabbath (as even the Baptist Confession of Faith appears to say about Adam).

    Sabbath keeping would have continued all through Psalms 95:7 which is the reference Paul is speaking of.

    I agree that there was a "rest" that was specific to Canaan and there is rest specific to the 2nd coming and Millennium. If the Sabbath is pointing forward - and yet to be fulfilled in antitype - then it is still in force as a type.

    However Isaiah 66:23 makes it clear that long after the millennium - in the Rev 21 "New earth" From Sabbath to Sabbath "shall all mankind come before Me to worship".

    Every way you look at this - the Baptist Confession of faith of 1689 is correct - the Ten Commandments including the Sabbath are kept from Adam to today and onward.

    That is entirely possible. My argument is that Paul only speaks of the promise of Ps 95:7 and not another day or another event. So lets look at this as the millennium being referenced by David in Ps 95:7. Even so it was not abolishing the TEN Commandments or the 4th commandment in the day this promise was given. Nor does Paul mention a "change" since Ps 95:7.

    He simply argues that this same context, same promise, same idea remains just as it was in Ps 95:7 when all agree it was not abolishing the 4th commandment.

    In that sense then the weekly Sabbath is a weekly reminder of that promise of a future millennial rest. A bit of "heaven on earth" each week.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    Do you hold that we are as saved as we ever will be when receive jesus thru faith, and that those scriptures you keep quoting are God saying to us, "since now saved, this is how you should behave" NOT " saved, but unless you keeep the law fully, still might be lost?'

    Is that part of your Inversitgory judgement, that when you die, God weighs out just hopw obedient to the law/sabbath etc you were, and still can be lost and destroyed by your theology in the end?
     
  16. BobRyan

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    You are either a saved saint who is by the spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh as Paul says in Romans 8 or you are not.

    It is not question of being "Saved-er" next year as compared to this year. Rather it is a case of Romans 2:6-11 "perseverance" over time. To continue as "as you have received Christ Jesus SO WALK in Him" Col 2.


    I don't believe in OSAS - and neither to Methodists or Seventh-day Adventist nor any consistent Arminian group of Christians.


    No lost person becomes saved in the Dan 7 judgment predicted to start in Dan 8 at the end of the 2300 years.

    No saved person becomes lost in that Dan 7 judgment-- who was saved going into that judgment.

    The judgment of Dan 7 operates on the principle of Matt 7. "Looking at the tree" does not "Change the tree".

    It already is what it is.

    Looking does not change it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #16 BobRyan, May 4, 2013
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  17. Yeshua1

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    Do you hold the "prophetess' had a revealtion from god regarding inverstgative judgement, for the Bible teaches NOTHING like that, instead, that those in Chrsit are NOT condemned, and that they are forever secured in him, as His power is sufficient to keep ALL those saved by His death on the Cross!
     
  18. Gup20

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    Moses and the law came 430 years after salvation by faith was instituted with Abraham.

    Gal 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

    So a Biblical understanding shows salvation by faith instituted (based on faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ), and Abraham made righteous by his faith in Christ prior to there being any law in existence, and even prior to being circumcised (Rom 4:10), so it clear that salvation by grace through faith is apart from the law. The law was put in place to point us back to faith.

    The promise in Galatians 3 and 4 is of Christ and the covenant of faith. In Galatians 3-4 Paul says there were two covenants; 1)The Works of the Law and 2)Faith. In Galatians 4 he demonstrates that even The Law says to cast out the Law because those who inherit based on The Law would not be heirs with those who were saved by faith.

    The Law is how Jesus qualified as righteous, having inherited death because of the curse (Romans 5:12). He was the only one who never sinned.

    So there was only ever 1 Gospel.... the gospel of Jesus Christ.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Indeed on a great many topics. But that does not delete the Bible texts I provide in the post above.

    You cannot dismiss the Bible by your appeal to Ellen White.

    At some point you will have to address the Bible statements given above if you want to provide something compelling for the unbiased objective readers.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    We appeal to the bible as the Supreme authority, you to Ellen White, so how can baal and God agree?
     

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