one more on The Passion

sharpSword wrote:

"Could you please provide the Scripture that states that unbelieving and unsaved people will present the Truth of Jesus Christ, accurately, and according to the Scriptural Jesus?"

(I'm assuming this is refering to Mel Gibson.)

To sharpSword remarks I reply: AMEN sharpsword, That's why I should refuse to use that Catholic-based Bible, The King James Version. After all, Erasmus (who produced the Textus Receptus), never once renounced his Catholic faith, and in fact actively fought against opponants of the Catholic Church.

(Tongue planted firmly-in-cheek.) =)

 

Sharp.. so because Mel engages in or uses divination for sources that automatically means the fact that what is viewed in the movie as Jesus taking the punishment for our sin is obsolete? Truth is truth no matter if the messanger isn't completely up to par in their sources and ways. I never said nor do I believe Mel has sound doctrine, but I most certainly believe God will and has used what an unsaved world sees in a movie, play, music, or other forms.

The scriptures you provided are great, but they don't rebuttle what I've just said. Jesus said you are either for me or against me, I don't believe for one minute Mel Gibson is against Jesus Christ. The proof is already before us, there are many believing and accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour, try prooving that wrong.

 

Actually onestand, I was looking more for how God views the use of divination as a source of Truth. Could you provide those Scriptures please?

 

Just to save you some time,onestand, I posted this on another thread. If you could provide the Scripture that God changed His mind on these things, I would be very grateful. It would make things much easier to go with the poplular vote so to speak.

This movie is presented as good or Biblically sound. In evaluation, anything that presents the use of or is of the occult in a positive way or provides beliefs contrary to God's Word, or is presented by someone who rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior---we cannot embrace as a source of doctrine or belief.

Job 14:4 "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

There were given a list of nine occult practices which are forbidden by God and revealed to all as "abominations to the Lord."

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 "When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee"

We have no business enjoying or considering something to be innocent or alright that is an abomination to our Lord.

We definitely have no business calling it Biblically sound or good and of Him, if it is an abomination to Him. A quick review of those abominations revealed in the Scriptures shows this, sourcing various dictionaries and so on.

Someone who uses divination, which is defined as >"determine by lot or magical scroll; soothsayer.; oracle, witchcraft. Divination is also defined as "The act of divining; a foretelling future events, or discovering things secret or obscure, by the aid of superior beings, or by other than human means." aka ...demons

Thats the stuff of emmerich, bridget and mary of agreda, which mel gibson used for his script and which is portrayed in scene after scene.

Emmerich was known to have a 'spirit' as a companion that accompanied her wherever she went, she levitated and so on.

The Hebrew word for "an enchanter" means properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell, divine, enchanter. Webster defined an enchanter as, "One who enchants; a sorcerer or magician; one who has spirits or demons at his command; one who practices enchantment, or pretends to perform surprising things by the agency of demons."

A consulter with familiar spirits, which was emmerich, agread and bridget, is one who asks or inquires infromation from a divining spirit. This spirit was supposed to be in the person of the conjurer, and was used to reveal to what was secret or hidden in the future ...aka demon possession.

A person who is a necromancer" is supposed to foretell the future by communicating with the dead; a magician, sorcerer, magician, a conjurer-which was emmerich, agreda and bridget.--and Mel Gibson sourced their divination for his movie which many call God given.

All those abominations fit what emmerich, mary of agreda and bridget were/are about. And therefore the Scriptures apply.

How are those who belong to Jesus Christ to view divination and its end results?

Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Paul said in Galatians 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

We have been warned.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

giving heed <prosecho> to seducing <planos> spirits <pneuma>, and doctrines <didaskalia> of devils <daimonion>;

giving heed <prosecho> 4337. prosecw prosecho, pros-ekh'-o from 4314 and 2192; (figuratively) to hold the mind (3563 implied) towards, i.e. pay attention to, be cautious about, apply oneself to, adhere to:--(give) attend(-ance, -ance at, -ance to, unto), beware, be given to, give (take) heed (to unto); have regard.

to seducing <planos> 4108. planov planos, > plan'-os of uncertain affinity; roving (as a tramp), i.e. (by implication) an impostor or misleader; --deceiver, seducing.

1319. didaskalia didaskalia, did-as-kal-ee'-ah >from 1320; instruction (the function or the information):--doctrine, learning, teaching.

doctrines <didaskalia> 1319. didaskalia didaskalia, did-as-kal-ee'-ah from 1320; instruction (the function or the information):--doctrine, learning, teaching.

of devils <daimonion>; 1140. daimonion daimonion, dahee-mon'-ee-on neuter of a derivative of 1142; a dæmonic being; by extension a deity:--devil, god.
1142. daimwn daimon, dah'-ee-mown from daio (to distribute fortunes); a dæmon or supernatural spirit (of a bad nature):--devil.

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy

Speaking lies 5573. qeudologov pseudologos, psyoo-dol-og'-os > from 5571 and 3004; mendacious, i.e. promulgating erroneous Christian doctrine:--speaking lies.
5571. qeudhv pseudes, psyoo-dace' from 5574; untrue, i.e. erroneous, deceitful, wicked:--false, liar.

in hypocrisy 5272. upokrisiv hupokrisis, hoop-ok'-ree-sis from 5271; acting under a feigned part, i.e. (figuratively) deceit ("hypocrisy"):--condemnation, dissimulation, hypocrisy.

1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

no fellowship 4790. sugkoinwnew sugkoinoneo, soong-koy-no-neh'-o from 4862 and 2841; to share in company with, i.e. co-participate in:--communicate (have fellowship) with, be partaker of.

Jesus, our Lord, said very clearly

Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Lu 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Lu 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit

 

onestand:

Jesus said you are either for me or against me, I don't believe for one minute Mel Gibson is against Jesus Christ.


S&T:

What "we" believe is not as important as what scripture clearly states. Divination is hated by God, therefore it is against Jesus. Praying to idols or elevating anyone or anything above God or equal to God, is hated by God, therefore it goes against Jesus. Adding to or subtracting from the Word of God, because Jesus is the Word made manifest, goes directly against Jesus and God.Preaching another Jesus and another Gospel....well...you know. You shall know them by their fruit was a clear statement made by Jesus. Time to for everyone to become fruit inspectors, and deny the feelings, which come from the flesh.

[ March 24, 2004, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Spirit and Truth ]

 

I do wonder about all this.

What can we find in Scripture concerning the gift of the Holy Spirit where truth is spoken, but not fully known?

Check this out:

And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. (Acts 18.24 & 25) Note what is said of Apollos he was:

</font>

• mighty in the scriptures</font>
• This man was instructed in the way of the Lord</font>
• fervent in spirit</font>
• he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord</font>
• he knew only the baptism of John</font>

Now, what does vs. 26 say happened?

Continuing into chapter 19 we see that Paul finds 'certain disciples'. (Note that Apollos is mentioned in connection with this as being at Corinth, why is Apollos mentioned here?)

Paul asks these 'certain disciples' whether they had received the Holy Ghost since they had believed; they answer to him they had not so much as heard whether there be an Holy Ghost.

Then Paul asked them "Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said unto John's baptism." (Ch. 19 verse 3). Now alot of people have tried to convince me this is not referring to the 'fervent' teaching of Apollos. But just look at the way the context points back to that teaching.

First, Apollos is introduced, and he is said to know only the 'baptism of John.'

Then Apollos is continued to be referred to in the immediate context of vs. 3 by name in vs. 1. Then when these 'certain disciples' are questioned by Paul, they answer they were baptized unto "John's baptism". Which statement is most certainly referring us back to ch. 18 and vs. 25.

So, then we see what harm is in speaking the truth, as certainly Apollos did do, ( being instructed in the way of the Lord, speaking and teaching diligently in the 'things of the Lord', but knowing only the baptism of John), without the 'authority' to do so. There is enough Biblical 'proof' for me that this movie is and will result in no good.


God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

LarryN:

To sharpSword remarks I reply: AMEN sharpsword, That's why I should refuse to use that Catholic-based Bible, The King James Version. After all, Erasmus (who produced the Textus Receptus), never once renounced his Catholic faith, and in fact actively fought against opponants of the Catholic Church.

S&T:

Since I am not a KJV only, and since I do not care if Mel is catholic, or from mars for that matter, I think I should ask you this question. Is there any heresy in the KJV Bible? I couldn't find any, even if I used a modern version to try and find it I ask this because I could find a lot of heresy in the Passion movie, and could define it as such whether I used a KJV, an NIV, or even...i said...AND EVEN a message bible. Imagine that !!!

 

Sharp,

So basically you wish to have biblical proof of how God views the use of witchcraft, fortune telling and things such as this? Obviously from scripture those are not Godly things. For the sake of your request (although it has zip to do with the topic at hand)Isaiah 47:10-14. Yes I am aware of the sources Mel used to make this movie, which btw happened to also be the word of God!!

This movie is widely based upon actual scripture, and yes some from the views of people who use ungodly sources for their inspiration. Seems quite interesting to me that still nothing has been proven to be infalible with facts of folks seeing Jesus's sacrifice on the cross and yet the "inspiration" from these quite indirect people really isn't having ANY impact. Any bit of truth God will use, like it or not, and it's extremely obvious in the lives being changed and transformed...NOT DUE TO THE MOVIE, but due to the seed of Jesus sacrifice for them being portrayed in the movie....

The arguement your attempting to use with the "divination" concept just blows over and itsn't even relivant.

 

onestand,

What translation are you reading? Just wondering.....

Also, do you think that God will have Mel's rewards waiting for him in heaven, for mixing his words with the Words of God, elevating Mary, and perverting the truth?

 

S & T

I'm sure God will have YOUR reward for using this movie as a tool to divide the brethren. Your disagreement with the movie is perfectly allowable and defensable. However, you've taken divisiveness to an all-time high. The copious number of threads and posts by you on the subject is evidence of that.

I know you mean well, but you actions and methods are inexcusable.

No doubt, you'll quote some bible verse in a twisted manner to excuse your unbiblical behavior.

 

Luke 12

37 Blessed are those slaves whom the lord will find watching when he comes. Truly I say to you that he will gird himself and will make them recline, and coming up he will serve them.
38 And if he comes in the second watch, or he comes in the third watch, and finds it so, blessed are those slaves.
39 But know this, that if the house-master had known the hour the thief is coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be dug through.
40 And you, then, be ready; for in the hour you think not, the Son of Man comes.
41 And Peter said to Him, Lord, do You speak this parable to us, or also to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and wise steward whom the Lord will set over his house servants, to give the portion of food in season?
43 Blessed is that slave when his Lord comes and will find him so doing.
44 Truly I say to you, He will set him over all His possessions.
45 But if that slave should say in his heart, My Lord delays to come, and should begin to beat the men servants and the female servants, and to eat and to drink and be drunk,
46 the Lord of that slave will come in the day in which he does not expect, and in an hour which he does not know. And He will cut him apart and will put his portion with the unbelievers.
47 ** But that slave knowing the will of his Lord, and not preparing, nor doing according to His will, will be beaten with many stripes. ***
48 But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few. And everyone given much, much will be demanded from him. And to whom much was deposited, more exceedingly they will ask of him.
49 I came to hurl fire into the earth, and what will I if it already has been lit?
50 But I have a baptism to be immersed in, and how am I pressed until it is done!
51 Do you think that I came to give peace in the earth? No, I say to you, But rather division.
52 For from now on five in one house will have been divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 Father will be divided against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against mother; mother-in-law against her bride, "and the bride against her mother-in-law." Mic. 7:6
54 And He also said to the crowd, When you see the cloud rising up from the west, you immediately say, A storm is coming; and it happens so.
55 And when a south wind is blowing, you say, There will be heat; and it occurs.
56 Hypocrites! You know to discern the face of the earth and of the heaven, but how is it you do not discern this time?
57 And why do you not judge what is right even of yourselves?
58 For as you go with your adversary to a judge, give pains in the way to be set free from him, that he not drag you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.
59 I say to you, In no way may you leave there until you pay even the last lepton.

 

S&T it's not up to me to say what rewards if any await any individual including Mel, I'm not God so who knows.

Btw...i read several translations...niv,kjv and others i'd mention except i'm not sure what all i have.

 

onestand:

S&T it's not up to me to say what rewards if any await any individual including Mel, I'm not God so who knows.


S&T:

In the Old testament the punishment for using divination and consulting soothsayers was stoning. I sure am glad that Jesus paid the price.... Mel should be even gladder

The New Testament has some judgements written in it as well. The punishment for adding or subtracting from God's Word is a tough one.

Revelation 22

12 And, behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each as his work is.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last.
14 Blessed are the ones doing His commands, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and by the gates they may enter into the city.
15 But outside are the dogs and the *sorcerers*, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the *idolaters , and everyone loving a lie, and making it. *
16 I, Jesus, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And the one hearing, let him say, Come! And the one thirsting, let him come; and the one desiring, let him take of the water of life freely.
18 For I testify together with everyone hearing the Words of the prophecy of this Book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add upon him the plagues having been written in this Book.
19 And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and of the things having been written in this Book.
20 The One testifying these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen. Yes, come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen.

 

Spirit & Truth wrote on 03/23 @ 2:30 PM:

"...God searches the heart, neither you, I, or anyone else has the ability with any surety to say that anyone is in heaven"


sharpSword wrote on 03/24 @ 4:39 PM:

"Could you please provide the Scripture that states that unbelieving and unsaved people will present the Truth of Jesus Christ, accurately, and according to the Scriptural Jesus?"


Perhaps those who oppose this film can get together and compare notes sometime. Spirit & Truth, sharpSword seems to have an ability that you (or I) don't have.

 

I'll be up front and say that this will be my only posting on this subject, but I just feel led to add two things to this discussion:

1. I totally agree with the statements about there being warnings against idolatry, divination, etc. There are also absolute Scriptural references against sexual immorality, and there is a commandment against lying. God used in a mighty way...a LYING PROSTITUTE!!! God can use anything He wants, regardless of what WE think about it.

2. Phillipians 1:18 - "But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this, I rejoice."

 

sharpSword said

A couple of passages come to mind. The first is in John 11 when the high priest Caiaphas who would be part of the Jewish leadership that requested Jesus' crucifixion prophesied. Verse 51 says,

Surely Caiaphas was lost and unsaved, yet the Lord used him.

How about I Samuel 28 when king Saul used the witch of endor to summon Samuel from the grave. Certainly this witch was unbelieving and unsaved, yet the Lord still used her and Samuel to deliver his message of judgment to Saul.

In Matthew 8:29 demons testify that Jesus was the son of God.

In Luke 19:40 Jesus said that "if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out."

Why do we want to put God in a box and say what he can and cannot use? Time and time again he used the wicked nations of the world to chastise Israel. In Exodus 10 He used Pharaoh and hardened his heart. The Bible says in verse 1-2.

Would Pharaoh qualify as unbelieving and unsaved, yet God used him to testify that He was in fact the Lord.

How about the fact that God used the Assyrians, Isaiah 10:5 describes this when God said,

God also used the Persians, the Babylonians, the Greeks, and the Romans to force his children back to him. Do they qualify as unbelieving and unsaved?

Is that enough?

 

And all of these are portrayed as good things?

Surely God can and does use the pain that is brought about by negative events to bring people to the realization that they need Him.

But the movie is portrayed as being accurate and good. By endorsing this movie Christians are also endorsing the falsehoods within the script.

God can use the death of a believing spouse to bring the surviving spouse back into a relationship with Him. You're not advocating the killing of Christian spouses, are you?

Just because God can bring good out of evil doesn't make the evil ... good.

 

No Glory, any falsehoods in the movie are NOT endorsed!! However viewing Jesus Christ suffering and HIS willing sacrifice is most definetly endorsed and that was the focus of this movie. Perhaps you call it evil, I do not view it as evil in any sense.

 

sparkle:

1. I totally agree with the statements about there being warnings against idolatry, divination, etc. There are also absolute Scriptural references against sexual immorality, and there is a commandment against lying. God used in a mighty way...a LYING PROSTITUTE!!! God can use anything He wants, regardless of what WE think about it.

S&T:

Maybe you should alert the "leadership", as they will need something new to jump on shortly. They can go to the inner city, round up all of the lying prostitutes and have them preach Christ [for a small fee]. Is this God's standard, or the standard of God's people? The only difference would be, that Mel preached a different Jesus for a large fee.

sparkle:

2. Phillipians 1:18 - "But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this, I rejoice."

S&T:

Problem being, that this movie preached a different Jesus and a different Gospel, so it doesn't qualify.