Only Two Contrasting Options available

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Jul 17, 2010.

  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. - Rom. 3:27

    1. The law of works
    2. The law of faith

    Paul gives only two contrasting options available for justification, not three or four or five.

    Therefore, "the law of works" must include "the law of Moses" and "the law written upon the conscience" as well as all other laws of "right" and "wrong." Indeed, Paul spells out this law for justification by works in Romans 2:6 in the words "according to his deeds" whether he is responding to the law written on his conscience or the law written upon stone or skins or paper (Rom. 2:11-15).

    In contrast "the law...of faith" is spelled out in Romans 3:22-26 as the righteousness of God apart from the law and the prophets that is obtained through faith, not the act of faith, but the OBJECT of faith which is the righteousnes revealed in the gospel (Rom. 1:17) to be the propitiatory Person and work of Jesus Christ in Romans 3:24-26 which is the OBJECT of faith rather than any action of faith.

    "faith IN his blood"
    "believer IN Jesus"

    It is the same "law of ....faith" that the Gentiles can obtain the righteousness of God apart from the law written upon their conscience or the law given to the Jews. Why because it has to do with CHRIST'S WORKS not your works; HIS PROPITIATION not your satisfaction of God's righteous demands.
     
  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.


    DW tries in vain to pit obedience to the law and faith as if they are opposed one to another. This is true in one sense yet not true in another. If speaking concerning the grounds of salvation, certainly no amount of obedience can atone for the least sin or justify one with God on the merits of any work or works. Just the same, no one will be justified before God that is not obedient to His law. It is NOT due to our obedience to the law that we are justified, nor could we be, but neither will any be justified while remaining disobedient to His law apart from repentance.
    Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    The bottom line is: anyone that believes they are justified or will be justified by God while remaining in their sins is simply deceived as to their standing before Him. Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
     
  3. DHK

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    James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    --HP posts this verse as if it stands in contrast to Paul's statement on justification by faith. We all know it doesn't for the Bible doesn't contradict itself. James is speaking of practical Christianity; living the Christian life.

    Let's make another statement similar to James 2:14 but a bit different.

    ...though a man HAS faith, and one does not see his works, can his faith save him?
    --Of course it can (and does). If his works is not observable to you--who sit in the chair of God: accuser, judge, and executioner--what does it profit? It is God that sees his heart; his faith--not you? Why do you pretend to be God?
     
  4. BobRyan

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    In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says "but what matters in keeping the Commandments of God"

    In Rom 2:13 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justiFIED" Rom 2:13 - speaking of Gospel justification "ON the day when according to my Gospel God WILL judge" Rom 2:16.

    In Rom 3 Paul concludes with "Do we then make VOID the Law of God through faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

    In Romans 1- 2 Paul talks about the sanctified life of the saints - and warns against the lost world outside the church in Romans 1:18-32 and also the lost souls inside the church in Romans 2:1-4, 17-24.

    In Romans chapters 6, 7, and 8 Paul shows how it is that the sanctified life of the saved saints is that of keeping the Law of God - rather than claiming that sin is our "master".

    "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law but under grace? God forbid!" Rom 6:15.

    In Romans 8 we are told that the wicked world do not in heart "subject themselves to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they".

    How then do so many supposed saints want to claim to be in the role of the wicked lost world of Rom 8:7? Makes no sense.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2010
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  5. BobRyan

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    In Romans 2 - Paul contrasts the saved saints inside the church and outside the church - vs the lost sinners inside the church and outside the church.

    Paul points out that the difference is not "Who is a Jew" and who is not - in this impartial fare and just system of God - but rather who shows the new birth, new creation element of the Law written on the heart and mind (as we see in Rom 2:27-29.

    Paul argues that for the saved saints of Rom 1:7 who persevere in doing good-- there will be "Glory and honor and immortality - eternal life" Rom 2:7 -- and that this is to the "Jew first and also to the gentile" Rom 2:10.

    For in Rom 1:16 Paul has already affirmed this Gospel result for "The Gospel of Chriist is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: This would be an excellent time to let God’s Word be true and everyman a liar.
    :thumbs:
     
  7. DHK

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    The question that was posed:

    is already answered in very clear words in the Bible:

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Love towards God implies a rejection of that contrary to love. Love towards God implies obedience to His Word. One cannot love and serve God and the flesh at the same time. Listen to the clear word of God. Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    What might you say to one that would exclaim, “I love a certain woman and intend to marry her, BUT in the meantime I am continuing to ‘love’ a few others as well.” ?? Would you honestly believe they really loved anyone but themselves while acting in direct opposition to the commitment love demands??

    God commands us to love Him above all else. A person is simply deceived to believe they love God while their actions prove the opposite. Jesus said, “Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John tells us “1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Of a truth, to suggest that one can have faith in God while engaging in that which is in direct opposition to loving God, i.e., sin, apart from sincere repentance, one is simply deceived as to their standing before God. 1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: A very true verse indeed, but that in no wise precludes the admonition for us to examine ourselves to see IF we are of the faith. If one says they have faith, their works should be consistent with that faith, lest their faith be found to be dead, and dead faith will in the end save no one.

    Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
     
  10. DHK

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    You judge your faith and I will judge mine. I know that I am justified by faith and by faith alone. I also know that the day that I was justified--put my faith in Christ, that all my sins were forgiven--past, present, and future. My salvation is secure in Christ.
    There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
    Salvation is one thing I can never lose.

    Like I said, you judge your faith and I will judge mine. I judge mine according to the Word of God, not according to your opinions.
     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    What you simply do not get is that those who HAVE BEEN justfied "by the law of faith" will not be justified "by the law of works" in the future simply because they "shall not come into condemnation [judgement] but is passed from death unto life" already (Jn. 5:24).

    They HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED before God and they don't need DOUBLE justification before God and according to Christ they will not come into judgement in regard to life and death but have already passed from death to life in regard to the judgement of God.

    Romans 2:6-10 is simply jerked out of context and misapplied by some on this forum. Romans 2:1-5 is directly addressed to "WHOSOEVER THOU ART O MAN" that thinks they will escape judgement based upon being BETTER than thou - and it is immediately followed in Romans 2:17-24 by a very direct application to the race of people who prided themselves in being BETTER THAN THOU - However, the bottom line in Romans 2:6-15 and in Romans 2:25-29 is that all who come on that basis or "according to his deeds" will not be judged comparatively but righteously due to the standard of God's righteousness which demands consistency between the inward and outward on the level of the righteousness revealed in the gospel - the righteousness found in Jesus Christ.

    Progressive sanctification is never complete or perfect in this life and always comes short of the glory of God and is never the litmus test for entrance into heaven but for temporal blessings and eternal reward in heaven.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Romans 1-2 deals with the sanctified walk and gets into the subject of justification future "will be justified... on the day when according to my Gospel God WILL judge".

    Romans 3-4-5 deals with the fact that all have a sinful nature, all the children of Adam are in need of Salvation - and the lost are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

    There are some who try to conflate the issue of Justification future that we find in Romans 2, with justification past that we find in Romans 3, 4 and 5. It does not work.

    Past justification changes the status from lost to saved. Future justification simply confirms the decision and shows that "good trees produce good fruit".

    But as HP pointed out - the fact that one was justified in the past - does not mean that they will choose to "persevere firm until the end". They could always exercise free will to the point of choosing to no longer accept the Gospel change and go back to their old way of life.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Dr. Walter

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    Romans 1-2 DOES NOT deal with the sanctified walk but deals with the GOSPEL MINISTRY and why it is needed because the wrath of God is revealed against the world and that they have no righteousness, no good works that can measure up to the righteousness REVEALED IN THE GOSPEL.

    Romans 3-4-5 deals with how such SINNERS exposed and condemned in Romans 1:18-3:9 can be justified "by the law of faith" without their works but by the works of Jesus Christ as the OBJECT of faith, which works completely PROPITIATE the wrath of God revealed from heaven against such sinners.

    You simply do not know what you are talking about and you are perverting the scriptures to promote your heresy.

     
  14. BobRyan

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    Romans 1:7 is written to the saints of Rome. It is written to "you" - the saints in the church of Roman "to the Jew first and also to the Greek" 1:16

    5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles
    for His name's sake,
    6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
    7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.
    9 For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make
    mention of you,
    10 always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you.
    11 For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established;
    12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine.


    Romans 1 compares the saved saints inside the Church in Rome to the lost world outside.

    Romans 2 expands that contrast and compare model -- to the saved saints vs the lost Jew who is INSIDE the church at Rome who "causes the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" because while claiming to be a saved Christian Jew they are actually living in violation of the Law of God.

    1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
    2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
    3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

    Rom 2
    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,


    ...
    17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
    18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
    19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
    20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
    21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
    22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
    23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

    24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
    25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

    Paul flatly condemns those Christian Jews in the Church of Rome that happen to be lost. He argues that in violating God's Law they show that they are not saved. He then contrasts them to saved gentiles both inside and outside the church of Rome and says that salvation will go not only to the saved Jews and Gentiles inside the church of Rome that are shown to be "doers of the Law" that have their hearts circumcised by the Holy Spirit - but even gentiles OUTSIDE of the Church who have no access to the bible at all - and yet "show the work of the Law written on the heart" whill be judged as "saved" saints, Rom 2:27-29.

    27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


    Obviously.

    in Christ,

    Bob



     
    #14 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2010
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  15. BobRyan

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    By contrast to that wild guess - we have the text of scripture in Romans 1 -

    5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles
    for His name's sake,
    6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
    7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.
    9 For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you,
    10 always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you.
    11 For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established;
    12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine.
    ===================================
    The saints in Rome are called "saints" in vs 7.
    The saints in Rome are the the called of Jesus Christ;
    The witness and testimony about the sanctified life of the saints in Rome goes far beyond Rome itself - your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

    And Paul concludes his letter to the church of Rome in 16:17-20 affirming their sanctified walk in Christ and urging that they hold fast to it.

    17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.
    18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
    19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil.
    20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen
    .


    in Christ,

    Bob.
     
    #15 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2010
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  16. Dr. Walter

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    Romans 1:1 is about the setting apart of Paul to the gospel ministry
    Romans 1:2-5 reveals the subject matter of the gospel ministry
    Romans 1:6-8 reveals those at Rome are the fruits of the gospel ministry
    Romans 1:9-13 reveals Paul's prayer was his desire to come to Rome for mutual benefit
    Romans 1:14-17 reveals Paul's desire to preach the gospel because it reveals what lost men under the wrath of God need for salvation.

    The major theme of Romans 1:1-17 is not the walk of the believer or progressive sanctification but it is specfically and repeatedly about the Gospel ministry and the value and need of the preaching of the gospel as it relates to the power of God in saving sinners through revealing the righteousness of God received by faith because the whole world is under the wrath of God (Rom. 1:18) and wholly without the righteousness necessary to escape the judgement of God (Rom. 1:19-3:9).

    To suggest that the primary theme of Romans 1:1-17 is about progressive sanctification or the walk of the believer is simply willful blindness to God's clear and explicit Word.

    To suggest that merely setting forth the righteous demands and consequences in the day of judgement for examining such better than thou men who believe they can escape the righteousness of God "according to their deeds" in Romans 2:1-29 is presumptuous intepretation based upon no contextual evidence at all and indeed contrary to the very context that introduces and follows Romans 2:6-15. It is contrary to the Apostles own definitive purpose clearly and explicitly stated in Romans 3:9 that looks back first at the Gentiles in Romans 1:18-32 and "O Man WHOSOEVER THOU ART" that thinks they will escape judgment because they are comparatively better in Romans 2:1-5 as well as the lost Jews who possess this same mind set in Romans 2:17-3:8.

    The eisegesis that reads into Romans 2:6-11 actual success before God by justification "according to his deeds" rather than merely Paul setting forth the faith and righteous (v. 5b) standards and consequences is beyond presumption as verses 11-15 set forth "the law" as the standard of judgement in that day and Paul clearly and explicitly states that "NO FLESH" shall be justified under the Law's standard (Rom. 3:19-20) and that no one will be successful in being justified "by the law of works" - Rom. 3:27 and justification "by the law of works" IS the law stated in Romans 2:6.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    As we just saw in Romans 1 - Paul affirms the status of the Christians in the Church of Rome as "saints" - Rom 1:7.

    As we just saw in Romans 1 and Romans 16 Paul affirms the fact that the sanctified walk of the saints in Rome is "known" to Christians far outside of Rome. (We just saw this in Rom 1:7-8 and in Romans 16:17-20.

    It is more difficult than you may have at first imagined to simply ignore these inconvenient details found in the text of scripture.

    In Romans 1 the ones blatantly condemned by Paul are the "barbarians" that are outside the Christian church that reject the Gospel.

    But in Romans 2 (as we just saw in vs 1-6 and in vs 17-24) Paul then condemns the lost Jews (Rom 2:17i-24) in the Church of Rome who "do the same things" (Romans 2:1) as the lost and wicked barbarians mentioned in Romans 1:18-32 as being outside the church.

    Ignore these inconvenient details found in the text of scripture might be a "requirement" for your views Dr Walter. But my views do not require that I ignore this part of the text. I am happy to bring these verses up each time you feel the need to ignore them.

    I just don't see how this helps your case to keep exposing that particular weakness in your argument.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    On the contrary - the eisegesis you employ to ignore the "immortality and eternal life" results for "the Jew first and also to the Greek" (the "saints" of Romans 1:7) as found in Rom 2:7-16, 27-29 and then pretending that the only "true" part of Romans 2 is the "Wrath of God" in vs 5 and 8 is a far cry from what an objetive unbiased reader might have expected.

    Notice that WHEN Paul wants to argue the point that "EVERYONE FAILS" under a certain model - he is not at loss for words to say it. (See Romans 3:20. He does not say it by promising them "immortality and eternal life".

    But when Paul wants to show the SAME "good tree" vs "bad tree" scenario that Christ shows in Matt 7 - he is fully capable of making that statement - and taking all of Romans 2 to do it.

    And so -- he did.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Dr. Walter

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    Do you think that merely repeating error makes it right?????? You take one verse (Rom. 1:7) and try to characterize the whole context of Romans 1:1-17around a thought that is by no means the primary theme of that context.

    You are not guilty of ignoring "details" you are guilt of ignoring flashing neon lights repeatedly restated over and over again throughout Romans 1:1-17.

    Your interpretation is baseless, your "details" are non-existent because you ignore what is obviously stated and the obivous context. You are living in a dream world, a fantasy created in your own mind. Dream on my friend, but when you get ready to deal with things exegetically let me know.



     
  20. BobRyan

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    Here is Christ making the Point -- in Matt 7

    13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
    14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
    16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
    17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
    18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
    19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.
    21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

    22 "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
    23 ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

    24 ""Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

    Here is Paul making the SAME point as Christ --

    Romans 2 -
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
    9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
    10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


    11 For there is no partiality with God.
    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

    14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
    16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
    27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    ==========================

    The notion that these texts are hard to read or hard to compare or too difficult to SEE that they are speaking to the same point - escapes me.

    But if your POV "needs" you to go down that road so beit. Just don't think that the objective unbiased readers of the text will be so quick to join you in that trip.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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