Ordination of women

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jim1999, Mar 9, 2006.

  1. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    This is being discussed in a Baptist only section of the BB. It is here I would like to recommend a book on the topic: The Ordination of Women to the Priesthood, by Dr. Margaret E. Thrall (SCM Press, 1958).

    Also, to consider the following to begin with:

    The final chapter of Stendahl's study is called "Emancipation and Ordination." Here he points out that the question of any cultic role for women in the New Testament is never separated from the role of women in ordinary life, and this role —subordinate, of course —is seen as founded in the order of creation. It becomes extremely difficult then to assent to women's emancipation in civil life and to hold to subordination in the ecclesiastical area unless one makes the church the last bastion of the biblical view. Yet this too contains a contradiction, because it is in Christ, not in the world, that there is to be neither male nor female.

    Stendahl writes, "If emancipation is right, then there is no valid 'biblical' reason not to ordain women. Ordination cannot be treated as a 'special' problem, since there is no indication that the New Testament sees it as such."

    Stendahl is a professor at Harvard Divinity School, in the US of A.

    Part of the argument is that Paul, in writing to Timothy, is not excluding women, but is speaking, in that century, about specific problems and against women in general. Why do we have female deacons in other New Testament books? Deacons preached and performed other mixed-gender duties, so much as this patriarchal time period would allow.

    Some have been quite miotic in there subjective approach to understanding the scriptures, and refuse to consider the evolution of thought, ideas, circumstances and whether the actual words are timely or eternal.

    Whilst somethings are relevant to the Fall of man in creation, there are also evidents freedoms under grace. Not all laws are eternal, but cultural gravitations are expected and do happen.

    God bless the ladies,

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  2. Joseph M. Smith

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    Very fine post. Just as Paul's admonitions to slaves about remaining in their status and being subservient to their masters betray not only his cultural understanding but also his expectation of an early end to things temporal, so also his strictures about women in general and about women in church leadership are not only culturally conditioned, but are also, Paul himself admits, his own practice, but not necessarily an eternal norm.

    In the other list, someone asked the question, "If ordination and church leadership for women are prohibited, why? It has to be more than 'because the Bible says so.'" (I am paraphrasing). Yes .. because we must always examine the whole counsel of God, which ends with the climactic assertion of Galatians 3:28, and must also look for the cultural conditions that brought about a given Scriptural prohibition.

    And then there is the whole discussion about whether Paul wrote the pastoral epistles .. but I guess we don't want to go there, do we?
     
  3. DeclareHim

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    1 Timothy 2:11 "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness" ESV

    1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." ESV

    I think these verse are rather explicit.
     
  4. nate

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    Rt. Rev. Jim,
    You bring valid points to the table. I think this issue is a tough one. I'm very much a traditionalist and for nearly 2,000 years of Church history we didn't ordain women to the priesthood. I have no problem with women holding the office of Deacon. This is a issue I wrestle with the (my)Church (REC)does not allow the ordination of women into the priesthood.
     
  5. nate

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  6. Jacob Dahlen

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    Galatians 3:28 states that all are equal in the eyes of God, however it never says that women can be ordained.
    And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit (Joel 2:28-29)
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy (Acts 2:17-18)
    Again this says women can prophesy and nothing else.
    Deuteronomy 18:15-22: The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
     
  7. Jim1999

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    And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy...Joel 2:28
    "prophesy" Hebrew naba..to speak....by inference, God has no objection to women speaking (prophesying) in mixed company the most spiritual of things. (Acts uses the same word)

    In the church, ordination in something man does publicly..God calls, and places His hand upon those He calls..man simply confirms what God has already done.

    To reiterate wot I already said about Timothy, Paul is addressing particular problems of the time, and perhaps even location. Paul says that a deacon must be the husband of one wife, the same as a bishop, and yet we already know there are female deacons, whose name have been listed among the male deacons. Are you suggesting that homosexuality was really acceptable afterall, and these female deacons were to be the "husbands" of one wife? I am being facetious, of course, but we must be open to a right interpretation of the scripture also, and not jammed into archaic understandings from a patriarchal generation....Coming from England, I know all about a patriarchal society, where we even have a law on the books of London, that "it is illegal to beat your wife after 9:pM....." Yes, that old law is still on the books. It is really a noise bylaw.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  8. Jacob Dahlen

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    So then, Jim you made up your mind on this one before you even started this forum and their is no way I can change it. Ordination of Women…Typical Anglican heresy....
     
  9. Jim1999

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    You know Jacob, for more than 50 years I held the view that it was wrong for women to enter the pulpit as either a preacher or pastor. So, I guess my mind is open. I am also governed by wot the word of God says. The things is, Wot is the word of God saying? That is the question we all must answer, and I am not always sure wot the word is saying despite my 79 years on this planet. I am still learning.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  10. music4Him

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    I won't pastor a church, but I'll preach and tell people about Jesus.
     
  11. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Now now Jacob, no need to get nasty about it! It's not any kind of "heresy", it's just a fact. God has no objection to women preachers.!

    Simple as that!

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  12. Jacob Dahlen

    Jacob Dahlen
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    @tamborine lady
    This from a Judaizer...I bet you think that all men have to get circumcised to be saved.
     
  13. Tazman

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    I know this scripture is used to say that we are all equal with regard to service - leadership - and abilities, but It would seem best fitted within the context of being equal "Heirs according to the Promise", not according to leadership.

    I don't think this scripture address the issue of women teaching or leading men, but it more so address the issue of us all no matter who we are being Heirs of the promise that is in Christ Jesus. (read the passage before this one to see the point)

    We all have our purpose. [​IMG]
     
  14. gb93433

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    I am not sure what to make of the writing. I do know that if one looks at how societies and cultures operate around the world, typically the more women who work in the society the more women will lead in that society until you reach 50% and then the numbers begin to reverse. In societies where the women do most of the work, most of the leaders are men.
     
  15. mima

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    One of the most outstanding evangelistic soulwinning people I know it's a woman. She does not claim to be a pastor, she has no desire to be a pastor, but her work while of a different nature is much more effective in fulfilling the great commission that many pastors I know. She understands many of the questions about women being in ministry and for that reason she operates under the covering of a church with a male minister. Here's a helpful hint of who she is, she is a messianic Jew.
     
  16. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    :rolleyes: :eek:
    I have no idea why you said that, but no, circumcisn has nothing to do with salvation!

    Working for Jesus,

    Tam
     
  17. Jim1999

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    Brother Nate, I almost forgot to mention that in the Anglican Church, being ordained a deacon is often the first step to priesthood. It was not an easy decision for the Anglican communion to take that next step in ordaining women to the priesthood.

    I am not sure how much the shortage of men played in the decision making, but it was a close vote at the time, and women often had a tough time when they became a vicar in a church.

    I must confess, that I am conceding the fact that there is another understanding of the passages in question. I just don't think we are open enough to begin to understand the progressiveness of the CHristian religion. Not that essential doctrines are in question, but the peripherals are definitely open. This, to my mind, is one of those peripherals open to cultural bias, and perhaps we men are wrong. As I intimated early, prophets, not only foretell, but also forthtell; they preach.

    My apologies to you, tamborine lady, those remarks were certainly uncalled for, just as some like to play with such words as "heresy". The importance of that word is that at one point in history "heretics" were burned at the stake!

    Cheers, and God bless,

    Jim
     
  18. nate

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    Show me in Scripture where we are directed to pray to Mary or the Saints? Your Church isn't exactly error-free.
     
  19. nate

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    Again Rev. Jim you speak wisely.
     
  20. hillclimber

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    OK, I guess we simply ignore these verses huh? Doesn't seem to fit your intended outcome does it Jim?
     

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