Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration :)

You haven't shown ANYWHERE that they are out of context. You know better than to ask people to just believe what you say - prove it.

Yess.... It was a reference to Elect Israel or the Whole of Isreal . It was to Israel (you know - the nation who rejected Him) that in their darkness (to which they were sitting now rather than walking - as Isa states) His Light was seen by them. Them = National Israel. Those same ones you 'claim' can not see the light without being alive first. Now - was ALL of the Nation saved? (HINT- According to Paul, not yet but it will eventually be ) John was declaring that the Light has come which Isaiah prophesied would indeed come and bring peace the national ethinic Israel.

No, just your rendering of what it means. I already showed you through multiple posts that one CAN NOT be alive and NOT ALREADY IN the Light. Yet they are in the darkness 'seeing' the light and God is calling them 'from' it to Himself.

You keep going back to your opinion of what John 1 is stating (which has no biblical foundation) and I have showed scripturally that you 'opinion' is absolutely and scripturally false - that life must come first. It is for this reason I believe you wont touch the question about 'Does scripture state or does it not that we justified, sanctified, .. ect. - by faith" Or that you wont touch those passages I gave in conjuction with the one above. They absolute refute your theological position.

It appears you wont 'hear' or 'see'. I am giving you multitudes of verses (in context) which refute your theological view and you don't even deal with the points I give. That isn't debating brother, it is I'm right regardless of what you say. I am at least dealing with each and everything you are stating.

Of course man will not understand if left to himself - no one disputes this because no man can just up and determine he is gonna be saved today. God must work on each man that he might accept or reject the truths God reveals to him.

No, to understand being born again one must understand "the regeneration".
The Holy Spirit determines how, when and where He will convict and reveal God's truths to each and every man but salvation or being born-again is determined by when a man is regenerated - and that is 'by faith'.

You still have not dealt with this and it is the crux of the matter and the intent of the OP.

 

Incorrect sir. You stated (as per my question about what regeneration entials - justification, sanctifation, indwelling, righteous, and IN Christ) you agree that this is 'regeneration' and that all this is imparted prior to the excercising of ones faith.

You have not shown any scripture for which to base such an assumption but I have shown multitudes of scripture which states none of the above are imparted apart from the excercising of ones faith - thus one is not regenerate except 'by faith'.

Regeneration is the justification and sanctification of a person. It is because of these that a person in declared righteous before a thrice holy God, and it is because of these two things that a person is placed INTO Christ where there is both Life AND Light (you can not have one without the other in Christ). And it is due to the justification and sanctification of a man that the Holy Spirit can indwell them being that there no sin and being IN Christ.

Scripture states dear brother absolutely that justification and sanctification are ONLY - by faith and never prior to it.

 

It is the SAME light that Matthew was speaking of, to which John was speaking. They aren't two different lights man! They are one and the same, bith refer to a spiritual light which is Christ and Christ 'gives' light to all men. Where in the world do you get you stuff from?

Secondly, I have not changed to any 'other' passages except with what you give and anything that is correllary (sp?). I would like you to deal with what I gave you refuting your veiw. I deal with what you give expressly but in context.

You keep saying they only know the facts about God. Well buddy, if they know the facts about God, sin, and judgment to come, they also know about their need for Him. The whole point is - they reject it as truth. They understand just as you and I do, but the only difference isn't 'understanding' you keep saying but receiving it as truth. There isn't a distinction in scripture between them knowing the facts about God and us knowing the facts about God.

First off you haven't proven your first contention.
Secondly Yes, National Israel. To place the NT saints in that is contextual dishonestly. And BTW - I didn't cite Romans nor did I say Romans, I merely pointed out that Paul agrees with me

Again with the contextual dishonestly. Scripture never, no not ever, states they 'were' in darkness and 'now' they see. Scripture states IN Darkness they SEE. Look back again at the passages I have given. Show me one passage that states in the light they saw the light. No, it states IN the darkness they saw light.

So now you are contending that the 'regeneration' is not the new birth?
Please, make up your mind.

Regeneration means new life. If the first is true to which you agree then the second is also true which is established by the first.

LOL :laugh:
Oh but they did. They state that those IN darkness SAW the light and that IN the darkness God called them FROM it TO Himself. A complete and absolute contradiction of your view.

Your right James. Then show me what I am stating as refute to you is wrong. But it seems to apparent that no amount of scripture (taken in context) will get you to believe the scripture over your theological view. Deal with the scriptures I have given to show my error. The one you did deal with did not show any error because I was illistrating by Matt verse those in darkness SAW a great light. Those being National Isael to whom the context is expressly stating is in view. Israel as a Nation rejected Christ (those in darkness) but they still SAW a great light. They just rejected it.

It is my OP and I can request you address each point to give discussion and debate to the thread which I generated. I have that right. I have done you the courtisy of dealing with each and every one you have given and I would, at the very least, expect such courtisy in return.

LOL ... that is what I have been asking of YOU. You don't deal with what I give. You make a snide remark and return to your pet thought.

 

Yes He did but He did not mean what you have invented.

 

Let us begin again:

You state - Life brings light. That unless one is born again they can not see light.
For this you state John 1 which states "In Him (Jesus) is life and the life was the ligtht of men".

Problems with this view contextually:
1. Just a few passage down it states that Jesus "lights every man that comes into the word".

The passage to which you keep returning speaks of Christ being the sourse of both natural life and spiritual life - no question.
However John qualifies what kind of light he will be addressing by speaking of this life giving light - which is a reference to spiritual enlightenment not natural intelligence.

Thus when John states Jesus "lights every man that comes into the world" it is not a reference to the natural but the spiritual since that is the context John is taking regarding John 1. - spiritual.

Your whole view breaks down in this verse because it would have every man that comes into the world being born again in your version, if (as you state) one only has light because one is alive.

This is in context with passage. Light does not equal life, but in order to have life one must have light.

 

Now back to my questions about regeneration:

1. You state that justification, sanctification, rightousness, indwelling, and being In Christ all come about 'by faith' - so you agree with me here.

2. You also agreed with me that all the above are the aspects of the regeneration.

3. But then you stated that they are not the new birth - which IS the regeneration.


Let us reveiw this 3rd part - which makes no sense to me.
What MAKES a person new (the old things are no longer, everything is now new) or what constitutes the new birth?

Does He give us something (a new spirit) like giving a child a new bike to replace the old one? OR Does He renew the old by cleansing it and bring it back to it's intended original state?

I believe scripture supports the later:
Scritpure states:

Notice they are only a new creation once they are IN Christ not before.

How do we (according to scripture come into Christ)? Answer - through faith.

But in your view, we are a new creation and in Christ while still in sin (thus needing a saviour and to repent).
It is through the cleansing of Christ's death (the propitiation) where by we are allowed entrance. Why? Because it justifies and sanctifies us, making us righteous, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit - thus placing us into Chrsit.

And all of these you agreed come about or are imparted by faith and not prior to it.

Without which being new or not we are still in our sins and thus dead, and if dead we are still in Darkness.

But when all the above are imparted (done to man by God) it is only then that one can biblically state they are a new creation - Old things are no more (sin and seperation from God - the old life) behold all things have become new.

 

Here again are each of the verses given which plainly and contextually state those in darkness see the light which you have stated they can not do. (As well as my commentary on those passages)

This passage deals expressly with National Israel. However There are mutlitudes of other verses which show that the unregenerate do indeed see the light and can choose to no longer be in darkness.

Here is another one. The light is to those who ARE IN Darkness and in the 'shadow of death' (under condemnation but not yet condemned) to guide them to peace.

He came as a light in the world (to unregenerate lost men) that they might believe and no longer abide IN darkness. They are IN darkness James. If they have life then they ALREADY have and are IN the light. You CAN NOT have spiritual life and no light in relation to Christ.

This is one of the most open and shut cases in scripture next to a few others.
God opening their eyes to turn them FROM darkness TO light. From Satan's power (which they are currently under and in - thus 'from' it) to God - SO THEY MAY RECIEVE.. forgiveness of sins (justification) and the inheritance (which includes the Holy Spirit) of those who are sanctifed (another aspect of the regeneration which can not be imparted apart from justification) BY FAITH. This does not state they are sanctified prior to the excercising of faith but AFTER.

This is one of the proverbial nails in your views coffin of being alive or regenerate in order TO believe. Scripture states absolutely - false.

Notice here that God Called them out of darkness - the call is the gospel call and they were still in darkness when He called them out.

The are IN darkness when God calls to them to come out INTO the light. If one is in darkness then one is dead or seperated relationally from God.

 

And yet scripture decidedly contradicts you.
You say they didn't know their need but Rom1 states they know that those who do (sin) are worthy of death. It states they knew their sin and they knew what continuing in it would mean and who would deal out that judgment against their sin. The fact they knew the consequences of their deeds shows they also knew their need for Him yet they rejected Him for their own pleasures. They to follow Him or they would be condemned but chose not to.

I don't see how you can maintain your view that they don't know their need for Him. They don't respond positively to the knowledge of their need for Him but that does not detract from the fact they know.

This is the debate side not the discussion side - it is kinda the nature of the beast brother.

We are not talking about a light switch but scripture and with IT says.

I have (that is why I posted them) and thus far you have stayed away from them.

No, scripture states faith comes before the new birth.
Of course the new birth is not something a man by himself just up and decides he will do or have. Man can not make himself born again by sheer determination. God makes man born again after he has believed what God has revealed to him. (John 1:12,13) Regeneration follows after faith.

Mat 4 is speaking of the Nation of Israel. However, since you are looking at that verse from your Reformed position (the Church has replaced Israel) I can set that one aside based upon a difference of view point in relation to eschatoloty.

That still leaves the others to be addressed.

Nope. Because if your point is true you would have to be a universalist because the scripture states shortly there-after that Jesus lights every man that comes into the world.

This illistrates my point in spades .. you still didn't even answer the OP.

It is not a yes or no question but and which is it (this or that) question on both.

 

I don't want this thread to get lost so I will bump it up.


So far I have not really had anyone engage the issue I posted in the OP.
Which is basically -what makes us new in Chrst and when does this happen?

Are we recreated into something that never has been or has God brought us back to what He originally intended of us - thus renewed us through justification and sanctification?

Some state we are justified and sanctified IN Christ being filled with Holy Spirit and made righteous before the excercising of faith. I have pointed out scripturally that not one of these things traspirewithout the excercising of said faith. Which do we believe - What Scripture explicitly states in order or mens opinions as to why the excercising of faith can not be first?

What constitutes a man being born-again/regenerate? I say that scripture is infatic that born-again/regenerate is another way of saying saved. So if one is born-again one is saved. Saved is a general meaning encompassing all things however being born-again or regenerate is specific to certain aspects which define what this new birth entail, which is speaking of their salvation.
1. Propitiation of Christ applied by faith
2. Justified by faith
3. Sanctified by faith
4. Righteous by faith
5. Indwelt by the Holy Spirit by faith

6. Thus due to all the above one is 'in Christ' or 'in life' and therefore having such life as is 'in Christ Jesus'.

 

Please understand that the below is not the OP but is the OP condensed into one sentence.

Please refer the OP concerning "Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration" (kinda sounds like a sci-fi movie doesn't it )
:thumbs: cool