Ordo Salutis

Actually, I've been joking around in latin. However, this is my view which doesn't really seem to fit here but I'll give it a shot.

Salvation first I view as everything including heaven not just the point in time we're justified. So where does Salvation lie? In the hands of the Almighty.

I look at it this way Salvation begins with God. With out God's intervention we wouldn't even consider salvation. So, for me it follows this path.

Salvation begins with the Grace of God. God has elected me to be saved whether Universally or specifically or both I'm not sure. However, ultimately, it is god's salvation. Then he softens my heart or prepares me for it. Then he offers it to me. The only appropiate responce is to accept the free gift with faith already given me. But then I must follow Jesus and live rightly with all the benefits and struggles that accompany it by the faith he has given me. At some point when I shed this mortal coil the Lord will raise me from the dead and a judgement of my actions and works will ensue under the Grace and provision and judgement of God. Then I will enter the wedding feast of the Lamb eternally with him.

All of these aspects are salvation.

 

What? That man cannot be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit? You don't believe that? No wonder you are confused.

 

rip,

I hope this will clear your thinking on the Holy Spirit and His proper roll in salvation.

What amount of the Spirit does one need? "filling?" "indwelling?" How about just the "wisdom" of the Spirit -- as in Prov 8? The whole passage speaks of the Holy Spirit as God's wisdom and the last 2 verses sound like a call to salvation:

"For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

IOW, all we need to do is "find" the "wisdom" and we will find "life." We don't need to be "indwelt"/"regenerated by the Spirit first. We don't really need to be "filled" according to this passage. And notice it also says that we are capable of "finding" Wisdom, too! Notice in 8:1 how Wisdom cries out to be heard even of 'ye simple' and of 'fools!'

I would we had never had the 'wisdom' of Augustine and Calvin to convince us otherwise! Perhaps now you will see that theirs is a competing wisdom with the with God's wisdom, the Holy Spirit.

What amount of the Spirit does one need? Knowledge and understanding of the Wisdom of God in salvation is all. If you've found that, that is the amount of the Spirit you need and you can be saved if you will be saved.

skypair

 

Dr.Bob,apparently you don't know about conversations DHK and I have had in our history on the BB.DHK has minimized the role of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.He puts man in the driver's seat.Unregenerate,depraved man can make his own decision without God entering the picture. Sure,the Holy Spirit is involved in the process somehow,but man is the decisive player.

I repudiate that.But,more importantly the Bible rejects it.Fallen man is in bondage to sin.Unless and until God the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces a person of sin and causes that one to believe and repent -- he is in a hopeless plight.

So when DHK says that "I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved." he is on the same old tired track of diminishing the foundational role of God being the Author and Finisher of our faith.

But DHK comes along and says :"What? That man cannot be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit?You don't believe that?No wonder you are confused." That kind of "dialog" is his stock-in-trade.He delights in twisting things around.He charges me with things that he very well knows are completely false --- over and over again.

 

Now comes the false accusation. You are responding to a statement originally made by me:

And then you turn around and say:
"DHK minimizes the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration."

Something wrong here don't you think. I would call it a false accusation.
Because I don't believe your theology (and swallow it) hook, line and sinker, gives you no right to say that I minimize the the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration. That is false and you know it.

 

If this had been skypair...

...the discussion would have been over that the ban already in place! :type:

skypair

 

It is the "somehow" that is your downfall. Either YOU were a sinner before you believed or you were saved/regenerate already? Which was it, rip?

If that is the way you see it, YOU better get on that "tired track." Let me ask you --- when the animals were named, who had the "sovereignty" to name them, God or Adam? YOU better figure out who is going to have the "sovereignty" to name your Savior, sir!

skypair

 

You are the one who falsely accuses on a regular basis.

Past statements and sentiments from you.More samples of your theology can be provided.

He [God] may be involved in our salvation.

God doesn't give faith to believe.

He [God] knew about it [our salvation] of course.

Whatever the will of God decrees,it will come to pass -- sounds like Islam to me.

Someone can come to Christ through a combination of superior wisdom and keen perception.

Granted to believe means privileged to believe.

Man chooses to be saved.

He [man] has the ability to make the decision all on his own.So even though the Holy Spirit was involved...

 

Past statements of theology are not false accusations. You are confused. The statement on being falsely accused still stands. BTW, when you quote me use the quote function. Most of these I recognize, some I don't, and therefore they cannot all be verified as being my statements.

Are you suggesting that God may not be involved in man's salvation??

A true statement. Why would God give a spiritual gift to an unsaved person?
I have yet to hear your answer on that.
My pet dog trusts me; has faith in me. Did God give him that faith?

Are you suggesting that God is not knowledgeable; does not know about our salvation? What kind of God do you serve?

"Whatever the will of God decrees..." The statement is a definition of fatalism; one of the beliefs of Islam. Is it one of yours as well?

I don't recognize this statement. You would have to verify it as being mine.

No doubt this statement was made in the light of Phil.1:29. Have you bothered to study it yet?

Man does choose to be saved. God gave him that choice just like he gave Adam and Eve the choice to eat or not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We have a choice--to receive or reject Christ. Christ himself taught that principle: John 3:18;36.

You don't like the truth do you.

So you post these truths of mine, and then call them false accusations.
Odd.

 

I would have thought the post would have at least been edited. Calling another BB member pathetic "you are pathetic" is hardly a post from grace, and IS a personal attack.

I guess birds of a feather flock together

 

A forum to discuss idea's and points of views should not be taken personaly nor should name calling commence. We all hold strong views and will defend them but this is a forum. We disagree about some of these theological questions. However, charity is a fruit of the spirit. Just a reminder.

 

rip,

I think you need to come up with a more credible scenario of salvation. The main, critical component of salvation for Calvies is that the unbeliever is "indwelt"/regenerate before they believe or even know of Christ. This just harkens back to infant baptism/regeneration. You've absolutely got to be kidding! Yet Calvinism depends on it but Baptists and the Bible say that is not so. Who do you believe?

skypair

 

You're quite the one to talk! I had said that the Lord was not merely involved in one's salvation -- He is responsible for one's salvation.You are the one who constantly puts the role of the Lord in an inferior position "He may be involved" etc. I never said that you claimed the Lord wasn't responsible for one's salvation.As a matter of fact I am glad to see you making such a declaration.

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He cannot be forced by God to make a decision.
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Agreed.
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God is not going to give an individual faith to believe.
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Biblically untrue.
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Your testimony is interesting to say the least.
You write in your profile: "I was a Christian for 43 years; then a Calvinist."
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You don't read too well. I became a Christian more than 40 years ago. Over 20 years ago "I came to Calvinistic convictions."

In your case you remained an Arminian.In my case the Lord led me to Calvinistic convictions.
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Are you inferring that you lost your salvation when you became a follower of Calvin?
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See, these kind of inane comments do not serve you well.I guarantee you can predict my respons:.I do not follow the man John Calvin.Prove that you are more mature than to type that drivel.

I did not lose my salvation when I came to a Calvinistic understanding of the Word of God.In fact my faith was strengthened.

Your remarks about losing salvation is shameful.But you say these kinds of things often.
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Or that Calvinists are not Christians? I am not questioning your salvation, just the wording of your statement of salvation in your profile. You might want to clarify it.
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You might want to step back and evaluate your walk before the Lord with these kinds of remarks of yours.

You might want clarification -- but I rather think you want to be extra-contentious.

You are not questioning my savation?! Why then do you repeatedly say things like I serve and worship a different God?You're rather transparent here.
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You have described to a Tee, the "fatalistic" doctrine of Islam. The God of Christianity is not like that. You are right in that Christianity is not Islam. That is why I would never believe such an Islamic doctrine. God is not fatalistic.
Here it is: "Whatever the will of God decrees it will be so." (your statement)
"Whatever Allah decrees it will be so." (Islam)
Not much difference is there? You have set God aloof from His people just as Islam has.
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Pure malarkey on your part.
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... you automatically take away from God many of his positive attributes.
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Does the Lord have any negative attributes?! They are all positive as far as I am concerned -- and I concern myself with Scripture.
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Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
--And why should this be my nemesis?
God knew before hand who would be saved. That is all that this verse is teaching.
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Well you need to study it a lot more.It does not teach that God merely knows beforehand -- He ordains,appoints,establishes,determines.His decree is realized in time -- then the ones who are His elect are given belief,and hence eternal life.

That passage still opposes your notions.
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I don't know about Calvinism in general. I didn't know that you were his official representative. Did he appoint you when he left you his will? I am not responding to Calvin. I am responding to you. So let's make that one point clear.
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Clarity is your forte?!
Yes,you are right.Calvinism is something you are not familiar with.
John Calvin does not = Calvinism. You specialize in untruths.
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I already said that I am not questioning your salvation. I made that abundantly clear.
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But the reality is that you often post such things as I related above.So your "abundantly clear" plea is not penetrating.

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To state what I explained above: What you (not Calvin) set forth, is a doctrine similar to Islam's doctrine of fatalism.
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Your bunkum again.
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Is Rippon more than one person. Why do you refer to "Rippon" as "us"?
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I distinguished in my last post things in which you have slandered me personally.I then related how you regularly malign Calvinists in general.But again,you have trouble reading.
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God does not give faith to the unsaved. How far off the map can that be?
There is no example of it in Scripture. There is no teaching of it in Scripture.
It is a man-made doctrine.
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I furnished several passages of Scripture which teach that God indeed gives faith to His own.You don't appreciate the force of those verses and yet you have the gall to say they are "man-made doctrines".Your doctrine of salvation is pretty man-centered -- not God-centered.
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If you say it is up to God, then man is a pre-programmed robot with no choice, but only those that God has elected must of a necessity choose for God has forced his faith upon them so that they have no choice but to believe. That is not Christianity. That is akin to a Muslim holding a sword to one's throat and saying: Believe or die.
God is not cruel and vindictive; He is a God of love. He does not coerce people into salvation, though he is not willing that any should perish.[/quote]

I told you in my prior post to gather up those toy robots of yours.Are they still in your sandbox?

Christianity is not Islam. God is not cruel;although vengence is indeed His.

God is love.But He is not only love.

He doesn't force people into salvation.

He is not willing that any of His own perish.You need to contextualize 2 Peter 3:9.Read,study and meditate on the whole Epistle.Then get back to me.

 

This is simply an assertion of yours. If it were true you would be able to back it up with irrefutable evidence or Scripture, but you can't.

I didn't see the word "convictions" written on another line.
Even so, a former Catholic could write: I became a Christian 20 years ago; then a Baptist.
Catholics consider themselves Christians. A new Christian may believe that becoming a Baptist was the point of his salvation. Thus I simply asked for clarification on what you had written.

This is not true. I am neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist, and never have been. One does not have to be one or the other, contrary to your thinking.

I already explained myself as to my comment. It wasn't an inane comment. It was a request as to clarification to what you had written in your profile.

Not really. I have explained myself. Leave it at that.

If you are going to make remarks like that, you better be prepared to back them up.
Where have I said that you serve a different God?

Then prove the analogy wrong.

What man classifies as negative attributes? Yes. Justice, Judgment, etc. Those that are offsetting to love, mercy and kindness.

Please don't give me that Islamic drivel again. We are all pre-programmed robots with not will of our own. Everything that happens is either one of two things:
1. It is by fate, and God knows about it.
2. It is pre-programmed by God, and man has no choice about it. He is simply a robot in God's hand.
What are you saying. Which one do you choose to say that man is.

I disagree.

No false accusations. I answer you; not Calvin. You are not his appointed representative. If so shoiw me that in history. I believe in sola scriptura. I use the Bible. Do you? I refrain from the tenets of Calvin. I would suggest you do the same. Use Scripture to defend yourself. You wil gain more respect that way.

I will let it be known that you don't believe me.

 

I have given you plenty of Scripture earlier in this thread.You deny the thrust of the verses.The Scripture is right.You are in rebellion to the Word.
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This is not true. I am neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist, and never have been. One does not have to be one or the other, contrary to your thinking.
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Real Christians fall into the Calvinist and Arminian camps.Some professing Christians Christians are semi-Pelagian.Your beliefs square-up with Arminianism.
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Where have I said that you serve a different God?
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Well,one such time (of the several) was post #82 of yours on the thread "God Got The Memo" wherein you said that I am "worshipping the wrong God."

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Then prove the analogy wrong.
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Your analogies are worthless.When you start saying stupid things like God must give faith to dogs so they'll obey their masters -- in order to dismiss the biblical doctrine of God giving faith to His people -- you have stepped into nonsense.It seems Sp has become your mentor in the faith.

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What man classifies as negative attributes? Yes. Justice, Judgment, etc. Those that are offsetting to love, mercy and kindness.
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None of God's attributes are negative.How then would you classify His Holiness?
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Please don't give me that Islamic drivel again.
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Are you having an identity crisis?I am the one telling you not to dredge up your Islamic drivel again.I'll be real happy for you never to mention it again.It's sinful on your part.[/quote]

 

I don't know how DHK can have a conversatin with Rippon's butchering of the quote feature. It's amazing something so simple can be so hard to use