Origin of Pentecostalism?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Ingo Breuer, Feb 13, 2002.

  1. Ingo Breuer

    Ingo Breuer
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    I have a coworker who belongs to the Church of God, but he got saved at a Baptist church and has attended a Baptist Bible school. We often talk about faith issues, and he mentions that he believes that only the Baptists can trace their origin back to the time of Christ. But what about the modern-day charismatic/pentecostal movement? Where does it come from? Did it really just start at a Bible school in Kansas? Does church history ever record any instances of the gifts of the Holy Spirit among the Waldenses, Cathari, Paulicans, etc.? Even Shakespeare in his play Macbeth mentions a man healing and prophesying. So I believe that the idea that it all just started out in the Midwest in the mid-1800s scratches only the surface. Does anybody have a better idea of the origin of the charismatic/pentecostal movement? Do Baptists really believe in a disappearance of the gifts mentioned in Mark 16, throughout Acts and 1. Cor. 12/14? If so, is that documented in the Bible or in church history?
    Please let me know more. Thank you for your feedback.
     
  2. DocCas

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    The modern Pentecostal/Chrismatic movement's main roots can be traced to the Azuza Street (Los Angeles) Mission in 1904.

    However, the Azuza Mission had its roots in the Holiness Movement. The American Holiness Movement originated in the United States in the 1840s and 50s, and was an endeavor to preserve and propagate John Wesley's teachings on entire sanctification and Christian perfection. Wesley held that the path from sin to salvation is one from willful rebellion against divine and human law to perfect love for God and man.

    The Holiness Movement can still be seen in such churches as Wesleyan, Methodist, and Nazarene, which, of course, came out of the Church of England, which came out of Roman Catholicism during the reign of Henry VIII in 1536.
     
  3. javalady

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    Good points, Thomas!
    Also, in history where those with "pentecostal" experiences are mentioned, they often came from within the Roman Catholic Church; or as a sect that was not orthodox in it's doctrine (so not truly Christian).
    It's interesting because the Charismatics are so desperate to prove that theirs is not a late form of an old heresy that they try to tag believers from old (and recent) times with Charismatic beliefs, when they were (are) not. Tertullian, an early church father, got mixed up with some "Charismatics" of his day, and was denounced as a heretic by the rest of the church! This experience was not accepted as Biblical doctrine after about 100 AD.
    Some try to point at Jonathan Edwards, greatly used of God during the Great Awakening. Yet anyone who has read his work at all knows he decried the extremes of emotionalism that began to disrupt the work of God in the churches. He was certainly not a Charismatic!
    Another person in the BB tried to put AW Tozer and John Piper in the arena of accepting Charismatic teaching. I have read a good amount of John Piper and nothing I've seen by him supports such a claim.
    As for Tozer, I know he was a part of a movement which promoted a closer walk with Christ ("Deeper Life" I think it was called). Some of the leaders from that movement embraced pentecostal teachings. But my understanding is Tozer did not.
    Charismatics often twist things written or said & dub it as "proof" that a person embraces pentecostal/Charismatic theology; when really, it is just that the author has a deep, intimate relationship with God based on the Word & prayer.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    I read the story of the great Welsh Revival of the 1800's. Talked about the power and moving of the Spirit. NO healing, NO tongues, NONE of the nonsense of the modern charismatics.

    But a pentecostal friend said he read the same book and found comfort in knowing that the gifts of the Spirit pre-dated the Azuza Street meetings.

    Problem? He simply read 21st Century DEFINITIONS to the words that were used 200 years earlier. So when someone said the Spirit "moved" them or "fell" on the crowd, they assumed it was just like Benny Hinn!

    Good hermeneutics help in reading literature other than the Bible, too!
     
  5. Kiffin

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    javalady said,

    I think you are correct about Tozer but Piper is well known among Reformed Baptists as having some Charismatic leanings. Below are 2 sermons he preached on the subject.

    http://www.jesuschristcrucified.com/SpiritualGifts.htm

    http://www.tx3.net/~justice/finmood/piperfire.htm

    Other noncessationists was the late IFB Dr. John R. Rice and the great Reformed pastor Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones whose book Joy Unspeakable: Power and Renewal in the Holy Spirit was a frontal assault on Cessationist theology in Reformed churches and a call to return to the Book of Acts. That book is largely ignored by Calvinist today.
     
  6. javalady

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    sorry! I pushed the button too soon.

    [ March 15, 2002, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: javalady ]
     
  7. javalady

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    Thanks Kiffen, for the links. The one about DL Moody was nearly all experiencially oriented; as is typical of those who walk by sight and not by faith. Our argument w/ John Piper would be that he uses (more skillfully than most) the same ole, same ole Scriptures in defending the miraculous gifts for today.
    As for John R. Rice, I have read an article by him totally rejecting what he called "the tongues movement". He did not believe pentecostalism (or what they claim) is for today; so I think perhaps his words have been twisted around to make it sound like he advocated it.
    This is a very distinct problem with those who promote the idea that miraculous gifts should be "every day" today--in other words, "ordinary" in the life of the Christian. Twisting around the words of believers of the past who had distinctly intimate relationships with God & chose to honestly write about those precious experiences; versus the cold theologians who never seemed to drop a tear in the presence of God.
    The point we make: believers should experience the power of God in the praying! They should see great answers to their prayers. Christians should enjoy the presence of God in their daily lives, in their prayer time, in their worship. The reason we don't is not because we need a 2nd experience, but because we chase the world too much--too much TV, too much work, too much mindless chatter, even too much BB time or too much theology--and not enough Jesus!
    After having "been there, done that" for 20+ years in the Pentecostal/Charismatic scene, being rescued from all of that and getting our feet solidly on the ground finally with the Word of God
    there is nothing that could entice us back there!
    The reformed or baptistic Christians that claim you can live in both worlds (except for the majority of what I've seen of Piper) that I've observed so far lean far too much on feeling & experience, rather than the Word.
    The Word is the love letter of Christ to His Church; the "last & complete Word" of our God!
    When He illumines it to the heart of the believer in intimate worship, it is powerful!
    The tongues-speaking, prophesying, etc. we did 10 years ago doesn't compare.
    So I challenge this "experience" with the Word:
    "You are complete in Him "--Col. 2:10
    I am complete in Christ. He's everything I need, want, hope for, require. Why do I need
    "something more" as Catherine Marshall so blasphemously called it??!

    [ March 15, 2002, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  8. hrhema

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    Sorry to disagree with others but Pentecostalism
    started way before Azusa Street. Charles Parham in Topeka, Kansas is called the Father of American Pentecostalism and he began way before William Seymour did in California and Azusa Street.

    The Keswick Revivals in England in the 1800's had people speaking in Tongues. The shakers in the 1600's also were heard speaking in tongues or glossolalia.

    As far as Tertullian being Charismatic that is a little dangerous to say because Tertullian was the great orator at the Council of Nicea in defense of the Idea of the Father and the Son being two. He also was a debator at the Council of Trent when the Full doctrine of the Trinity became apparent in three.
     
  9. atestring

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    The Pentecostal movement began in the Wilderness in the days of Moses see EXODUS 23.
    Many Scholars believe that the Day of Pentecost was the day that Moses was given the law on Mount Sanai.

    The First Evangelism of the Church took place on the Day of Pentecost See Acts 2.

    Pentecostalism is not new nor did it begin at Azusa street in Los Angelos.

    When B.B. Warfield wrote a book in the early 1900's called Counterfeit Miracles he stirred up churches and they kicked out many members.

    Pentecostals as they are referred to today are just Baptist, Methodist, presbryterians, church of Christ etc. that got kicked out.

    I would encourage anyone interested to read a book by Eddie L. Hyatt entitled "
    2000 years of Charismatic Christianity"

    Another Source of information is "The Century of The Holy Spirit" by Dr. Vinson Synan. (Nelson Publishers)
    Dr, Synan even gives the account of W.A Criswell's daughter (see page 187).
     
  10. rsr

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    hrhema:

    Whether Tertullian was what we would consider a charismatic is difficult to determine. Certainly some modern charismatic groups link themselves to the Montanists.

    Tertullian died long before Nicae, much less the Council of Trent.
     
  11. Baptist Vine

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    How come the "there were always Baptists argument..." can be applied to Baptist churches, but when/if Pentecostals apply similar reasoning, the argument is suddenly faulty?

    True, Pentecostalism as an administrational denominational entity is only traced back as far as the turn of the century, but so are Baptist churches. There was no Baptist administration until approximately the same era.

    But the argument will be made that denominational organization notwithstanding Baptist beliefs predated and are traced back to the New Testament. Well the same can be said of Pentecostals. No administrative denominational entity existed, but the early New Testament church did record speaking in tongues, the gifts etc. etc., ie. Paul exhorts to not forbid prophecy, to not forbid the speaking in tongues.

    Even if one takes the position that the gifts ended, you are still faced having to accept that they existed and were in operation at one time at the very least. So, if this is true, the Pentecostals are not guilty of tracing their denomination back earlier than is warranted, they would be guilty of not recognizig that the agenda was changing, ie the gifts were on their way out - if one held to the cessationist argument. You have a clear biblical example of the recording and documenting of gifts in operation - the fact that it might be historical is not relevant.

    Everyone wants to establish their denomination as if it was ancient history no matter whether it was really only established a few days ago or a hundred years ago - Baptists included, Pentecostals included. This desire has come about for one reasonl only - to counter the claims of legitimacy by age put forth by the Catholic and Orthodox.
     
  12. rlvaughn

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    atestring, please note:

    Since you do not have the private messaging option, I am posting this note to you in the forum. Please be aware of the following rule of the Baptist Board: the forums designated "Baptist Only" are for Baptist Board members who are members of Baptist churches. Since your profile does not identify you as a Baptist, please confine your postings to the areas of the Board designated for non-Baptists, or, if you are a Baptist, please update your profile to reflect that fact. Thanks for your cooperation. Have a great day.

    rlvaughn, moderator
     
  13. Matticus

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    I'm somewhat missing what you guys's opinions of the charismatic movement are. I honestly cannot tell if you are against them or for them.
     
  14. JValen

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    I have 3 Penecostal friends, and all are really into tongues and heavy praying and I am tempted to visit their church, but 2 things hold me back.
    I heard One Penecostalism is a cult. I heard that
    Benny Hinn, is not always preaching the Word of God,and I read it in www.letusreason.org.which discusses cults & teachings against Christianity. The cults: Mormons, Jehovahs, Hari-Krishnas,Christian Science,etc..
    Also check out www.av1611.org. a very passionate website against darkness.
     
  15. atestring

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    I am a member of a Baptist Church.

    I have tried twice to update and have not been able to do so. It may be my ignorance of computers.

    Does this mean taht i should not post on Non Baptist forum?

    [ June 14, 2002, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: atestring ]
     
  16. rlvaughn

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    Atestring, thanks for your note. There may be some kind of damage or problem in your profile, because others have had the same problem. I will inform the webmaster and administrators to see if someone can fix it.
     
  17. atestring

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    Thanks for your help in this matter
     
  18. Graceforever

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    Ingo Breuer, I think you’re assuming that those gifts of the spirit, like healing, began with the charismatic movement? Not so, it's been in the churches for nearly 2000 years.... Is that assessment correct? Pardon me if I’ve misunderstood what you’re saying…. [​IMG]

    The charismatic movement, as we know it today, began around the same time, in the 1800’s…. I don’t know if the barking like a dog began during that time or not….
     

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