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Origin of the Waldenses

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by dean198, Jul 27, 2004.

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  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    If people want to be 'cool' by being part of a church which can trace its origins to the Apostolic Period,then by that token they should be Roman Catholic or Orthodox..."Be careful of what you wish for...because it may already exist"!

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #21 Matt Black, Jul 30, 2004
  2. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "However, there are also no periods in church history without some dissident group that insisted upon a converted membership, believer's baptism, and adherence to the scriptures, as well as protesting the hierarchy, transubstantiation, etc."
    ''
    On the other hand the differences between those dissident groups is often huge. We are fairly certain that the run of the mill pastor of any one of those groups would be barred from preaching in any modernday fundamentalist baptist church in a hurry.
     
    #22 mioque, Jul 30, 2004
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    No way Matt: "by their fruits you shall know them".

    HankD
     
    #23 HankD, Jul 30, 2004
  4. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Well, maybe. Again, with many of the groups, because of guilt by association, exaggeration, confusion, and just plain lies, we must take reports as to their beliefs with a very large grain of salt.
     
    #24 Major B, Jul 31, 2004
  5. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Major B
    Don't say that to swiftly, texts survive written by educated members of a number of those movements giving us an inside look to their views. We have among others Montanist, Albigensian and Waldensian texts.
     
    #25 mioque, Jul 31, 2004
  6. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    I wonder what people would think of modern Baptists if future archaeologists were to find only Chick Tracts or, on the other hand, articles written by Rauschenbush (spelling?).
     
    #26 Major B, Jul 31, 2004
  7. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Ack!

    Although I'd rather be associated with Rauschenbush than Chick, this is an excellent reminder of the fragility of documentary evidence of the past.

    To moderns who really delve into the matter, it would be shocking how thin the evidence is for much of what we take for granted about ancient history. Without Suetonius and Tacitus, we would be woefully deficient in knowledge about the early Roman Empire, and we are at their mercy in large part to understand those times. (Suetonius, long suspected of being over the top, seems to be borne out by modern research, but there is always a doubt; Tacitus' writings on Caligula are lost, alas.)

    However, this is not just a matter of history. How many folks (present and future) will judge Baptists on the basis of the Westboro Baptist Church rantings or of the Landover Baptist Church Web site?

    Verify, then trust.
     
    #27 rsr, Jul 31, 2004
  8. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "I wonder what people would think of modern Baptists if future archaeologists were to find only Chick Tracts"
    ''
    The sad thing with Chick is that he almost never truly talks about baptist Christianity. He spends all his time badmouthing the competition.

    Jack Chick OR Walter Rauschenbusch is boring, imagine the confusion of those poor churchhistorians when they try to discover the baptist worldview with Jack Chick AND Walter Rauschenbusch as their guides. That would be a dissertation I would love to read.
     
    #28 mioque, Jul 31, 2004
  9. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    "The sad thing with Chick is that he almost never truly talks about baptist Christianity."

    And I am glad of it. Baptists have enough baggage to carry around without adding Chick to the load.
     
    #29 rsr, Jul 31, 2004
  10. Dewey Maggard

    Dewey Maggard New Member

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    THe posts here do not answer "The Origin of the Waldenses" I would like to see your answers--Historically, I mean. Thanks - Happy Baptist
     
    #30 Dewey Maggard, Jul 31, 2004
  11. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    The best answer I can come up with is shrouded in the mists of time and known but to God. It isn't the most satisfying answer. But it does fit the best facts as we presently know them.
     
    #31 Squire Robertsson, Jul 31, 2004
  12. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    #32 mioque, Jul 31, 2004
  13. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Dewey:

    It's not likely that we can answer all the questions about the Waldenses within the format of a message board. We've provided some references and it must be clear that, as the Squire said, "The best answer I can come up with is shrouded in the mists of time and known but to God."

    There is no definitive answer known to man; the best we can do is likelihoods, about which we disagree. History is a messy business.
     
    #33 rsr, Jul 31, 2004
  14. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Actually my answer should read:
    It isn't the most satisfying answer. But it does fit the best facts as we presently know them. Now where did Herself put my ear scratcher?</font>[/QUOTE]
     
    #34 Squire Robertsson, Jul 31, 2004
  15. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Dewey
    For the record, the links I posted contains what is currently considered the most likely scenario by most churchhistorians.
     
    #35 mioque, Aug 1, 2004
  16. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    Here are some quotes. It seems that the Waldenses themselves, from the twelfth century on, believed in the antiquity of their group

    "Well before the time of Waldo, in the early twelfth century, a report was written in the chronicle of the abbey of Corbie, telling about the activities of a "peculiar and ancient kind of people" inhabiting the Alps, who learned the Bible by heart and often wandered about as merchants. They despised the ceremonies and customs of the church and showed no regard for images and relics." Monastier p.102

    "About 1230 Reinerus, a Dominican, who states that he had been himself a heretic, wrote a treatise against heretics. …The Waldenses: Reinerus begins by saying that these were the most pernicious of all sects for the reason: (1.) because they were the most ancient, more ancient than the Manichaeans or Arians, dating their origin according to some from the time of Pope Sylvester, 314 to 335 A. D. and according to others from the time of the apostles; (2.) because they are more universally spread; (3.) because they have the character of being pious and virtuous, as they believe in the Apostles' creed and are guilty of no other crime than that of blasphemy against the Roman church and clergy. He also states that they were in all the States of Lombardy and Provence.' “Here I have shown abounded Paulicians called Albigenses, etc., — another proof of their identity with Waldenses. “The heretics have more schools than the theologians and more auditors; they hold public disputations and convoke the people to solemn discussions. …They have translated the Old and New Testaments into other tongues. I myself have seen and heard a clownish layman who could repeat the whole of the book of Job by heart and many who were perfectly acquainted with the whole of the New Testament. They reject whatever is not demonstrated by a text in the New Testament; and then he goes on enumerating places where the heretics have churches and schools; all of which shows that dissent was very widely spread in North Italy and the South of France in the thirteenth century, and it corroborates the traditions of the Waldenses, that their doctrines spread at one time over many districts on both sides of the Alps." Jean Leger, General History of the Evangelical Churches of the Piedmontese Valleys


    Neander says: “It was not without some foundation of truth that the Waldenses of this
    period asserted the high antiquity of their sect, and maintained that from the time of the secularization of the church — that is, as they believed from the time of Constantines' gift to the Roman bishop Silvester — such an opposition as finally broke forth in them, had been existing all along.” Neander's Hist. Chr. Ch., vol. 4, p. 605.
     
    #36 dean198, Aug 2, 2004
  17. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "It seems that the Waldenses themselves, from the twelfth century on, believed in the antiquity of their group"
    ''
    Sigh...
    The Waldensians were the product of a culture where novelty was slightly suspect and for an idea, or an organisation to be taken serious ancient roots were a must. Especially if you were rebelling against a group that had such roots.
    If your group or ideas weren't old you simply made them old.

    On a personal note, as I'm getting older I find the ancient origins envy of American&British (semi-)Christian groups (Mormons, Landmarkists, SDA's, British Israelism etc.) more and more aggravating especially if it's combined with contempt for those (semi-)Christian groups that DO have a genuine ancient origin.
     
    #37 mioque, Aug 2, 2004
  18. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    Relax Mioque, this is a valid line of enquiry. Just because they believed they were ancient does not prove that they were, but it certainly is very interesting. Your explanation is not very satisfying personally. Can you show any indication that persecuted Christian groups manufactured their own history? Isn't it easier to believe that maybe there is some truth to the claim? What about the the chronicle of the abbey of Corbie? That was not written by a Waldensian was it? I can't understand why people are so willing to abandon possibilities just because of fantasy trips taken by landmarkists and SDAs. If you are willing and able to interact with the evidence, then do so, but if not, then don't get upset because I brought up evidence (note that the word 'evidence' does not mean 'proof'.) And stop arguing against the straw man landmarkist argument, which i do not accept. Sir Isaac Newton, John Milton, Jonathan Edwards etc were not 'landmarkists' but they believed that the Waldenses were ancient. Newton was probably one of the greatest historians who ever lived.
     
    #38 dean198, Aug 2, 2004
  19. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Sorry dean198 not intended as a swipe in your direction.

    "Your explanation is not very satisfying personally."
    ''
    That's because you are looking at it through the eyes of a member of modern Western civilization, where age is not one of the the primary criteria to judge the value of any and all ideas instead of using a medieval mindset.

    "Can you show any indication that persecuted Christian groups manufactured their own history?"
    ''
    Well... in the case of the Waldenses we have the Roman Catholic sources. I don't mean the hostile ones. I mean the positive ones. There is documentation that proves that in 1179 the Waldenses were recognized as an official papally approved movement within the RCC (with certain restrictions, most importantly they had no license to preach, when they continued doing that it led to the breakdown of relations in 1183). It's been a while but I thought, that documentation mentions Peter Waldo as the founder of the movement.
     
    #39 mioque, Aug 3, 2004
  20. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "Newton was probably one of the greatest historians who ever lived."
    ''
    Sir Isaac Newton? The gravity guy? He spend most of his time studying alchemy. He was a crackpot who had one brilliant moment that revolutionized physics and didn't even seem to realize it himself. To be honest can't remember ever hearing before now that Newton was a great historian.

    "What about the the chronicle of the abbey of Corbie?"
    ''
    Know very little of it. Not currently in a position to study it's contents. Only mentions of it's contents concerning the Waldenses I've found on the internet were on the sort of sites I've learned not to trust.
     
    #40 mioque, Aug 3, 2004
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