Original Sin??? #1

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Winman, Jan 12, 2014.

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  1. Winman

    Winman
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    Let's face it, the difference between Calvinism and non Calvinism is centered on the effects of the "fall" upon mankind. What do Baptists traditionally hold on this subject? I have found several interesting articles that might surprise many here. Here is the first from Dr. J. W. "Jack" MacGorman;

    Source- http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/pe...nevitably-leading-to-heresy-if-not-worse.html

     
  2. Winman

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    This quote summarizes it all;

     
  3. prophet

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    Man-worship is never pretty.

    Humanism (intellectualism disguised as theology) breeds man-worship.

    Jn 16:13
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:and he will shew you things to come.

    What need have we, of Man's teaching, when we have Man's teacher?
     
  4. Winman

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    And what is Original Sin? The teaching of Augustine, based on a flawed Latin text.
     
  5. prophet

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    I believe in 'original death'.

    Rom 5:12
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
     
  6. Winman

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    Oh, I believe when Adam sinned he spiritually died. That is why God had to make skins from an animal to cover his sin, a figure of Christ who would die for man.

    But Romans 5:12 does not say all men died in Adam, it says death passed upon all men "for that all have sinned". This is speaking of personal sin.

    As Dr. MacGorman pointed out, Paul demonstrated that all men were sinners from Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:20 and never once mentioned Adam, but taught all men die for their own personal sin.
     
  7. JamesL

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    The answer to this issue scares people. They run away crying "heretic"

    And Augustine wasn't the first to come up with the false notion of original sin, Tertullian introduced Traducianism in an effort to relieve tension that he saw in Romans 5

    this issue of original sin created enormous problems in other areas, especially regarding Christ. Ultimately, this error was ironed out with more error

    Romans 5 is one of the most misunderstood passages, but it is not the most difficult to understand. Shake off a little tradition and it all becomes clearer
     
  8. Winman

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    I believe Dr. MacGowan makes a tremendous argument that in context Paul showed all men were sinners from Rom 1:18-3:20 because of personal sin without mentioning Adam as the cause. Therefore, Rom 5:12 cannot be teaching that men sinned "in Adam" as Augustine falsely interpreted from a known flawed Latin text.
     
  9. prophet

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    "For that all have sinned" really should be a self-explanatory phrase.

    Here is the cause. Death is the effect.
    Not rocket science.

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die."
    No-brainer.

    Etc.
     
  10. Winman

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    Obviously it is not so simple or this debate would not continue for fifteen hundred years as it has.

    But then, I'm not a prophet.
     
  11. prophet

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    Covet the best gifts. Rather that ye prophesy. I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh. Etc. You are a prophet
     
  12. Winman

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    Amazing, a seminary professor that has taught Greek for over 50 years says Romans 5:12-21 is one of the most difficult and distorted passages in all scripture, you say it is simple.

    That IS a good gift you have.
     
  13. prophet

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    We dont worship at the Seminary Professor's feet, now, do we?
     
  14. Winman

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    No, but some seem to worship self.
     
  15. prophet

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    And some seem to worship others.
     
  16. Winman

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    Tell me prophet, which is worse?
     
  17. prophet

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    They are equal.
     
  18. Winman

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    Not so, to worship God and his Son Jesus is what all men should do. To worship self is what the devil does.
     
  19. prophet

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    To worship any creature, more than the Creator, who is blessed forever, amén, is idolatry.
     
  20. Winman

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    Agreed. But respecting a scholar is not worship. And if you knew me, you would know that I would challenge many a so-called "scholar".

    That said, I myself have studied Romans 5:12-21 for many years. I have my own interpretation of this passage, that it is explaining that both Adam and Jesus were "legal precedents". Those who sin as Adam sin are judged "sinners" and condemned to death as Adam was. Adam was the first. Likewise, Jesus is the legal precedent for those who believe in God, as Jesus trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. Those who trust in Jesus are imputed righteous.

    Now, that is MY view, and I doubt you would see that interpretation from many, but that is what I believe this passage is teaching.

    I simply think (and agree) that Dr. MacGorman's reasoning and interpretation was solid and logical. It is a very strong and scholarly argument that Paul did not mention Adam even once in Romans 1:18-3:20 where the context was the sinfulness and lost condition of all men. Surely, if all men "died in Adam" as Original Sin teaches, Paul would have mentioned it, but he did not.

    But I guess from now on when I encounter difficult scripture I should just send you a PM and you will give me an easy answer. :rolleyes:
     
    #20 Winman, Jan 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2014
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