Original Sin and Universal Atonement

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by rlvaughn, Oct 18, 2002.

  1. rlvaughn

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    Does all mean all? If there are no sins left, why would anyone go to hell?
     
  2. rlvaughn

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  3. Helen

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  4. Helen

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    Wait a minute. Here, here is a composite of my posts there in answer to this first one by Music Man and his ensuing disagreement with me:

    Music Man
    So I can understand what you are saying, let me see if I have it straight.

    What you are saying is that because of Christ's death on the cross, all of us are born free of condemnation and so enjoy the promise of eternal life, at least until we reject Christ, then death and condemnation come upon us? We could sin all we wanted to, as long as we do not reject Christ. We are ok because Christ already died for those sins.

    I think at the root of my problem, is the difference in how we view original sin and the effect of that upon us. I believe, according to Paul, that we are born condemned because of the one sin of Adam. We rejected Christ in the garden. Death and condemnation was passed down to all of us through Adam. We stand condemned already, as Jesus says in John 3.

    Helen
    Ok, Chris, let me turn it around for you. Let's see how it works.

    Christ did not pay the price for all sins. He did not collect the wages of death for sin in full, only in part. Most people are left out from the start. It wasn't the world He loved, but just a special few.

    It was not all sin He died for, because most of those created in HIS image would never stand a chance. They would go to hell for a sin nature they were not responsible for, simply because God chose to create them that way.

    This denies four character traits ascribed to God:

    1. Judge. He is pre-deciding, not judging.
    2. Justice. Even the most rudimentary concept of justice does not hold a person responsible for something they have no control over.
    3. Mercy. Which is said to triumph over judgement. Where is the mercy?
    4. Compassion. Do you actually believe you could love your daughter more than God does? That is the way it is if she is not one of the chosen few in the Reformed view.

    Why oh why is it the pagans who recoil in horror at the idea of babies being drowned in Noah's Flood and killed by the invading Israelites, and a certain group of Christians who have no problem at all with God declaring to the majority of babies and children who die: "Go to hell. I never loved you."

    That is not the God I know.

    That being said, now let's see what you wrote

    We are born free of being judged by the law until we know the law. Romans 7:7-11

    no, that is 'cheap grace'. Once you know what sin is (which is the purpose of the law), and then want to sin, that's it. Since God judges the heart, it's that wanting to sin in rebellion to the law that is the killer.

     
  5. Me2

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    I've Heard That A Perfect God Who's Nature IS Infinite Love Created Something.

    Something That He Loves Perfectly and Infinitely.

    Something That He Believed Was Worth Dying For, If His Purposes Required It.

    I've Heard This Perfect, Infinitely Powerful God Promised To Himself That He Would Give His Life As A Substitute For All Imperfection That It Would Be Subject To ..
    ...Before It Was Even Created..

    ...And He Fulfilled That Promise To Himself... He Died For His Creation... All Of It..

    Thus Proving That His Creation Is Infinitely Valuable and Infinitely Loved...All Of It

    When God Has A Plan..It Is Perfect.
    Because He Is Perfect.

    If Any Of Gods Creation Were Ever To Question God and His Plans.
    They Would Fail In Finding Fault and Imperfection

    "Hell" Is a Flaw In Mans Understanding Of Gods Plan and His Nature.

    [​IMG]
    Me2
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Jesus Christ died specifically for His own, for THEIR sins, to guarantee THEIR eternal life.

    If He had died for ALL without exception (everyone who has ever lived) then ALL without exception would have their sins forgiven. It would not matter two hoots whether they believe it or accept it; it is a done deal between Jesus the Son and God the Father.

    Penalty paid. Case closed. "But I don't want it; I reject it!" man might say. Tough. Done deal.

    So He died for ALL without distinction, that is some from every race and creed and age and gender and ethnicity and religion.

    Now did His death ALSO have periferal effects? Of course, on the planet, on that pesky original sin issue, on the spirit world. Man will not go to hell because of Adam's sin. Man will stand condemned of his OWN sin. And no covering of the blood.

    The soul that sinneth shall die . . .
     
  7. Helen

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    "The soul that sinneth shall die."

    That means it was alive first.

    And, again, I refer you to John 3:16-18. We are not condemned because of our sins, but because of our refusal of Christ.

    At least, that's what the Bible says.
     
  8. Me2

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    Hi Dr. Bob,

    Now I Know That My Beliefs Are Rather Liberal Here Compared To The Norm But...
    There are always questions enough for all To Ponder....

    Rom 14:11 For It Is Written, As I Live, Saith the Lord, Every knee shall bow to me, and tongue shall confess to God.

    Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in Heaven, and things in Earth, and things under the Earth.
    Phi 2:11 And that EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, To The Glory of God the Father.

    1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that NO man can say that Jesus is The Lord, But By The Holy Spirit.

    Man alive or Dead Can Not Say Jesus Is Lord, But By The Holy Spirit.

    Are You Interpreting the Bible As Saying That Many are in "Hell" After Death.
    And They Are To Say Jesus Is Lord?

    Are They Actually understanding What They Are Saying?
    And Are They Forced, or is The Confessions to be Voluntary?

    How Can These Statements Exist together without Conflicting?
    The Holy Spirit Within Them?
    Saying Jesus Is Lord?
    For The Glory of The Father?

    As Christians..Through Faith, We Learn That Jesus Died For Our Sins and He Is Our Christ.
    But Through 100% submission, A Relationship With A Loving God, and our Faith Being Tried By Fire and To Be Accepted As A Good Confession That We Say With OUR MOUTH that Jesus Christ Is Lord in Our Lives.
    That Is How We Try The Spirits. Does Your Brothers and Sisters Confess That Jesus Is Lord?
    By the Holy Spirit That Is Within Them?

    So In "Hell" As These Souls Cry Out, "Jesus Christ Is Lord". It Must Be By The Indwelling Of The Holy Spirit Within Them right?. A Good Confession?.. God's Spirit Witnessing To God's Spirit.
    and Are The Believers Afterwards?. and Still Remain In "Hell" ?.

    ......"Hell Is Still A Flaw In Mans Understanding of God and His Plan.
    My opinion is that A Believer Imagines a "Spiritual Environment" where only Doubt and Confusion Exist When He Seperates Himself From The True God. When A Person Believes that They Are Their Own God and Cuts Off The "Real" Lord. That Dispenses "Real" Life. There is no mercy or Compassion or Love. Only Judgement. They Fear The Appearance of The "Real" God For He Is Their Impending Judge. They Are living under the Law of Their Carnal Mind. They Are Children Of Wrath.

    In A Definable Environment in Which They Manufacture in Their Own Imaginations.
    All The While ...They Are Living

    The Occupants in My Beliefs Of "Hell" are The Children of Wrath until They Recognize They Are Dead In Christ And They Are Controlling Their Life By Their Carnal Nature.The Old Man Isnt Dead. Christ Is Not Resurrected in Their Life. They Desire To Live By Their Own Rules....
    While They Are Alive...and Not Physically Dead
    Jesus Is Not Lord in Their Life....... Now Thats "Hell"

    Thats My Mindset of "Hell" Dr. Bob

    [​IMG]
    Me2
     
  9. Scott_Bushey

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    Helen,
    You write:
    "The soul that sinneth shall die."

    That means it was alive first.

    And, again, I refer you to John 3:16-18. We are not condemned because of our sins, but because of our refusal of Christ.

    At least, that's what the Bible says.

    Sctt responds:

    Let me start by saying I appreciate your posts Helen. Most of the posts I have read from you are "full of grace". Not that I agree with your theology, you reveal Christ in your compassion and patience. Many can learn a thing or two from your example. In the above statement, I agree, it is almost impossible, on every post, to compile one's statement of faith. Posts do not necessarily exhibit every item one believes. I want to address something that I have seen in some of your previous postings.

    Yes the scriptures state that the refusal of *Christ* is grounds for being condemned, but have you missed the harmony of scripture in regards to the other items required? Jesus himself stated that you must believe the gospel! Do you believe that all he meant was an cerebral acknowledement? I disagree, there is much much more.......
    For instance: How does one accept Christ?
    1) Believe
    2) Accept
    3) Receive
    *The contrast is there in writ.....The demons do these things........yet they are not saved! The harmony of scripture shows that the man God causes to approach Him, those that have been given to the father shall have the true components needed unto salvation!

    Matt 7:21 expresses the need for more than an intellectual assent. God must *KNOW* you.....whether or not, that you know HIM, is irrelevant!

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Who were born but of God (J 1:12-13). Men must be born of God....not of the flesh (I believe), not of blood (My dad was a pastor, and his dad a pastor, etc.), Not of the will of man ( I want to be saved......the last place I want to be in is Hell when Christ returns).

    My point, it takes more than *believing*. It must be a belief from God. A regenerative belief. It must have the components that the scriptures speak of. Repentance must be there. Faith must be there, being born again must be there! God must justify the sinner. Men do not call on God, God is King, He alone calls & rightly, the servants respond.

    In regards to children/infants/imbeciles.....It seems I have possibly misunderstood you? Are you implying that the embryo is *not* alive? You have stated that "The soul that sinneth shall die", that this soul, MUST be alive first (my emphasis added). What are you implying?

    *ALL*, I repeat ALL, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All embryo's are living! At the moment of conception, the embryo is fallen.
    Adams sin has plagued past as well as present and future gnerations......that is why ALL need the savior----even embryo's.

    Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
     
  10. KenH

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    Actually, it doesn't. Damnation is because of the person's sin. Modern evangelicalism has tried to downplay man's sin problem and make it into simply a Son problem. To reject the gospel of Christ Jesus is to simply add on to one's other sins.
     
  11. Jim1999

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    The atonement was sufficient for all, but instead of some. The free offer of the gospel is genuine, but if man is born in sin and dead from these trespasses, then first he must have the gift from God to accept that free offer.

    A poor analogy, but nevertheless, here it is. The local radio station offers a free gift to all who call in the next five minutes. The offer has conditions. One must live in the listening area. One must call in the next five minutes. One is selected by the radio station. The invitation to all is not invalid, for all may call. The conditions are established by the radio station....so it is with the free offer of the gospel. It is for all, but the conditions are established by the Owner; God.

    There you have it, my tuppence.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  12. Scott_Bushey

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    Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

    Jonah 2:9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

    John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

    John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:

    John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you mine elect out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel , I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

    Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

    Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    [ October 19, 2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
     
  13. Chet

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    Helen I agree with you. What you have posted is what the Scripture teaches. Thanks for all the work you put into this.

    Let me add this passage: The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

    I think that sometimes people equate salvation with Jesus forgiveness of sins. A lot of Christians, when asked, "how do you go to heaven?" they will answer, "believe that Jesus died for my sins". But this is only part of the gospel. Jesus also rose from the dead to give us life, and that life is eternal. He also gave us His perfect righteousness. He is our savior because of our separation from God spiritually, our sin debt, and our sin nature that is not perfect. Furthermore, as has already been stated, we do not go to hell because of our sin. We go to hell because of our rejection of God's provision, Jesus Christ
     
  14. Chet

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    Scott said:
    Scott, I strongly disagree. The harmony of Scripture is clear, belief is all that is needed for Salvation. To try to add any more to this wonderful truth is to add to the wonderful grace of God. The scripture also is clear that our faith is required before we are regenerated. We are not regenerated, then given faith. Repentance is a word that must be defined. If you define it to mean that we change our mind then it can be plausible to say that repentance is a part of salvation. But if repentance of sin is meant, which is usually the case, then I even more strongly disagree. We can't repent of sin, we come to Christ as we are. Scripture could not be more clear concerning the condition of one being born again, which is a work of the Holy Spirit,
    (John 3:3; Titus 3:5) all we need to do is believe.

    Gen 15:6
    Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

    Rom 4:3
    What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

    Romans 1:16
    I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

    John 1:7
    He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.

    John 1:12
    Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

    John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    John 3:18
    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

    John 5:24
    "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

    John 6:40
    For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    John 6:47
    I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

    John 11:25
    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

    Acts 16:29-31
    The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."


    Many, many more examples could be given.
     
  15. Helen

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    Thank you, Chet. Whew!

    OK, I will not have much more time on the computer today as my son is coming over to replace the hard drive on the good one (this is the 'bad' one) and getting material transferred will take hours.

    Once I am off, that will be it for a number of hours, then, and I will be back this evening.
     
  16. Daniel David

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    Helen, all were alive in Adam. So yes, everyone was once alive. However, a little problem happened... Adam sinned. In doing that, all people are born prone to sin and because of that sin. I don't remember reading that ignorance of the law was grounds for innocense.

    If you are doing 50mph in a 35mph zone, you would get a ticket whether you knew the speed limit or not.

    Stop using your human understanding of babies as an excuse to deny the Bible. Just submit to its teachings. Stop manipulating it to say what you want it to.
     
  17. Clint Kritzer

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    But if you went to court and could show that your brakes had failed, would you be judged guilty? If you had a seizure of some sort and lost conciousness and your foot mashed the gas pedal would you still be totally accountable?
     
  18. Daniel David

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    Clint, what does that have to do with original sin and babies? Scripture speaks of babies as sinners by conception and also by choice. They aren't the victims of anything like some have painted them as.
     
  19. Clint Kritzer

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    Choice? Where do you see that in the Scriptures?
     
  20. Scott_Bushey

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    Chet writes:
    "Scott, I strongly disagree. The harmony of Scripture is clear, belief is all that is needed for Salvation."

    You add:

    "The scripture also is clear that our faith is required before we are regenerated. We are not regenerated, then given faith."

    ~ Born again as a requirement........
    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Chet, you may say, well, a man gets born again by "believing". Jesus did not say that. In fact, it was the opposite.

    ~Looks like the wind is likened unto the Holy Spirit....."arbitrary".

    John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    ~The wind is much like the Spirit of God. No one knows where it comes from or where it is going...
    But one thing is for sure, Jesus said to Nicodemus, one MUST be born again. In other words, the spirit, much like the arbitrary nature of the wind, must *lite* on you!

    ~Looks like even the belief a man expresses is not from himself........"belief, which was born, not of blood, nor of the flesh, nor of mans will......it was born OF GOD!

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    ~ The Spirit, like the wind, must be placed on a man...."but of God...born of God".

    ~The demons believe.........They're not saved!
    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    ~Many believed...........These believers were not saved!
    John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
    John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
    John 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

    ~Many believed....if ye continue.......Those that didn't continue, were not saved!

    John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
    John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

    ~In fact Chet, Eph 2:8,9 shows that men are not saved by believing, they are saved by grace, through faith.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Hebrews ch 11 reveals the Hall of Faith.......

    Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith ; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (My emphasis added)

    * Now, I am in no way implying that men do not have to believe....they do! They also must repent; they must receive, accept. Can a man be saved yet he repent? Jesus said it best, unless ye repent, you will all likewise perish! Did He forget about telling them to believe.......of course not.

    [ October 21, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
     

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