Original sin

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is original sin? Did we really all fall in Adam?

    I was amazed to see how many people were taking a pelagian position on this topic in another thread.

    Here is the London Baptist Confession on the topic:

    http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc06.html
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Frankly I think you were reading something into some posts that was not there. I don't recall anyone stating that infants did not inherit the sin nature or that those who die as infants get to heaven other than by the Grace of God.
     
  3. Carico

    Carico
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2009
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    0
    There's no need to be amazed. People are falling away from the faith in droves and they will keep falling way faster and faster because it's human instinct to go along with the majority. All of the answers to most of the questions here can be found in the bible. But unfortunately,, few people read the bible because they either don't believe it or don't trust they have the faith to understand it. So they prefer to get human opinions because one can always disagree with other humans and not feel guilty or convicted. But if you really want God's answers then the answer to this question can be found in the bible as well.
     
    #3 Carico, Aug 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2009
  4. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,121
    Likes Received:
    319
    It's probably not the best analolgy but here goes:

    I once saw a documentary show where baby rattlers (I believe they were rattlers) were being born.

    It was stated that they were fully equiped with fangs and venom to do what their parents do.

    So it is with us, given sufficient time our dear little babies will do as their parents have done (all have sinned).

    HankD
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    There is no question that we all inherit the sin nature because of the transgression of Adam. I believe that is what Pelagius denied, although it was improperly called original sin. However, that does not mean that infants and young children do sin though it is certain that in time all who are born will sin, knowingly or unknowingly.
     
  6. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    I think we might be getting carried away here. Of course we inherit Adam's sin and that sin nature separates us from God.

    I don't see that many "Pelagians" around here.
     
  7. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes and so an infant needs the grace of God in order to be reconciled to God.
    If one denies that a baby is a sinner then they are at least semi pelagian.
     
  8. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    Why are you pushing this point so hard?

    Just curious because you are slinging the term "plegian" around like so much hash in an army mess hall. I am curious why you are intent on absolute doctrinal uniformity to an Augustinian view of hamaritology.
     
  9. FlyForFun

    FlyForFun
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2009
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey -- I served 21 years and never once at "hash" in any mess hall, ever.

    :rolleyes:
     
  10. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,121
    Likes Received:
    319
    Hey, I was in the Air Force and I loved their version of GI hash.
    What branch were you in?

    HankD
     
  11. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,121
    Likes Received:
    319
    I agree with you OR, but reading through the Scripture, here is a passage that always alludes me.

    What is your take on this?

    Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

    HankD
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I believe that, as is the case with many of the Psalms, David is using hyperbole to describe wicked mankind. It is obvious that a literal translation cannot be applied since infants cannot speak as soon as they are born.
     
  13. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, on other threads about infants, some have claimed that babies automatically go to heaven because they haven't sinned. Iow, it seems that what was being said is that one must actively sin in order to be separated from God. The biblical view that all are born in rebellion to God and need salvation has been denied by some here, at least implicitly.
     
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marcia, where does scripture say that we are born in rebellion to God? I know that we are all under the curse of physical death and we also inherit the sin nature, but my interpretation of scripture is that we die spiritually in the same way that Adam did, by willful sin. This is why we are held accountable on an individual basis and cannot blame our sin on Adam or anyone else. If I sin because Adam sinned, then he is responsible for my condemnation.
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can't blame Adam, but our sin nature is inherited from him. Our sin nature separates us from God. We are either submitted to God or in rebellion to Him - one or the other. No one is born submitted to God. We are born spiritually dead.
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    In salvation when we repent of our sin do we repent of our sin nature?
     
  17. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can't repent of our sin nature, but because of salvation, God overlooks it. The process of sanctification is conforming us to the image of Christ and helps us overcome the tendency of our sin nature though we cannot stop sinning. However, the bent of our life should be towards less sin.

    The belief that we go to hell because we commit sins is not right - we are born spiritually dead and separated from God. I don't know of any Christian tradition or doctrine that says otherwise. In fact, Pelagius believed infants are born with a blank moral slate; iow, morally neutral. Some here seem to think that, or seem to think infants are automatically saved because they have not sinned.

    I think infants go to heaven because of God's grace; but the issue here is: do infants need God's grace? Some here seem not to think so. I've never come across Christians who thought this way except here on the BB. I'm quite surprised by it.
     
  18. JDale

    JDale
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    0
    The State of Babies Dying in Infancy

    There is much disagreement on this issue, but I think we can ALL agree with the statement made in Genesis 18:25, "Will not the God of all the earth do right?" When infants die, we can be assured that God, who is both loving and just, will DO THE RIGHT THING.

    That said, I believe there are several scriptural grounds to believe that babies who die infancy are SAFE -- not SAVED, but SAFE -- and will go into the presence of Jesus in heaven for eternity.

    First, Christ died for ALL mankind, and that includes every baby (I Tim 2:3-6; 4:10, etc)

    Second, a person is condemned because they have individually rejected faith in Christ. A baby isn't able to do that -- they cannot "commit" the sin of unbelief in a conscious way (John 3:18; 16:9).

    Third, the circumstances of the infant differ from those of the "heathen," or those who have never heard the gospel, because they are held accountable for rejecting the "lesser revelation" Paul describes in Romans 1:20ff. Infants are incapable of responding even to that "lesser revelation."

    Fourth, Paul states that those who willfully refuse to "obey the gospel" will "pay the penalty of eternal destruction" in hell (2 Thes.1:8-9). Infants cannot do this willfully.

    Fifth, at the final judgment at the Great White Throne, all of the unsaved are to be judged "according to their works" (Rev. 20:11-15). Infants can not be included if this is the basis for evaluation, because they have done nothing consciously "good" or "evil."

    Sixth, God is compassionate toward ALL men, "not willing that ANY should perish" (2 Pet. 3:9), but especially to children, as Jesus demonstrated in His Earthly ministry (Matt. 18:14; 19:14; Mark 10:13-14)!

    Finally, David's testimony upon the death of his first child -- a newborn -- with BathSheba implies that he fully expected to see his son again in the next life: "While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (2 Sam.12:22-23).

    I am confident that we can trust God to show no less compassion on little children in eternity than Christ did in His Earthly ministry. If "of such is the kingdom of heaven" does NOT mean that there will BE "children" in heaven, it seems God contradicts Himself. We may not be able to be "dogmatic" in this regard -- other believers may take the position that infants dying before they come to faith are reprobate and go to hell. I do not believe this is in keeping with the God's revelation of Himself to us in His Word.

    Just my take.

    JDale
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    And a very well thought out take it is!
     
  20. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,121
    Likes Received:
    319
    Thats as good an answer as any.

    HankD
     

Share This Page

Loading...