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OSAS and Limited Atonement

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 31, 2007.

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  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    There are those that try and hold to OSAS and deny limited atonement. We are told that man has nothing to do with their salvation and nothing we can do can cause us to lose it. We are told that our salvation was bought and paid for unconditionally, and then they shy away from the logical ramifications of a limited atonement, as if though they can escape the logical ends of OSAS, which in this case is none other than double predestination and limited atonement.

    If God is the sole cause of ones salvation, and nothing we do or can do can in any way can affect our standing before God, then God alone is the cause and sustainer of our salvation. Man, being passive in regard to salvation, either being chose from the foundations of the world or not, and that by the causative choice of God, is placed completely outside of the loop of determining his destiny, leaving God alone as the sole planner, director, and cause of every end of man.

    Salvation, not being universal in scope, is limited to a specific number of elect. With God alone as the sole cause, what other than God limiting the elect could cause such a limitation? Something causes the number of saved to be limited. If not God limiting salvation, who or what is the cause of the limitation? It cannot be man, for again we have nothing to do with gaining or losing our salvation according to OSAS.

    It is of necessity a complete and utter contradiction of theological notions, to claim the validity of OSAS and at the same time deny a limited atonement. If I am in error, show us the’ cause’ of the limited number of saved. Surely impotent man cannot thwart the plans of God can he?

    By the way, has anyone heard of Charles Stanley?
     
    #1 Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2007
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Limited Atonement deals with the "Selection" process for salvation (arbitrary selection from the standpoint of Arminians listening to the story). LA argues that since God is simply going to ZAP those whom he wants in heaven so that they are Christians - then the Atonement should really only be made for those he has selected. I.e (as per your previous thread) if God is the ONLY actor - and HE is selecting the "FEW" of Matt 7 and not the MANY of Matt 7 for salvation - then it only makes sense that He would ATONE for the FEW -- not the MANY!

    OSAS has to do with what happens ONCE you are saved regardless if you are saved "via arbitrary selection" or if you are saved via freely "accepting the Gospel invitation".

    Three point Calvinists have a good basis for saying that they are saved because they accepted the Gospel freely offerrred to all - and then arguing that because they hold to the Perseverance of the saints - they MUST persever and therefore stay saved the entire time.

    Arminians on the other hand can not hold to "free will" and then claim that after salvation they "have no choice but to persevere". Some of them solve that problem by turning a blind eye to the Bible doctrine on perseverance. I think that is the wrong solution.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Mar 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2007
  3. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    Yep. That's why we are OSAS.
     
    #3 DQuixote, Apr 1, 2007
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Precisely.



    HP: I have never met one that holds to OSAS that does not believe that man has nothing to do with their salvation. The very notion of OSAS proclaims, I had nothing to do with the process of salvation and I have nothing to do with keeping the process going, and I can have nothing to do with stopping or thwarting the process. OSAS points in three directions. It speaks to Gods actions antecedent to salvation, present acts, and future states. If one holds to OSAS one has to logically accept L and I.



    HP: I believe any man regardless of most doctrinal positions can be saved. “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.” Right doctrine never saved anyone. I do believe that right doctrine will indeed lead to less deception as to ones standing before the Lord, and should see more results in solid conversions. I believe there are a lot of individuals as mixed up about theological matters as can be, but I believe can still have a right heart with God. Take the eternal hell issue as an example. I believe you are dead wrong, but I also believe that it would be improper for me to judge your salvation upon that issue. I cannot for the world understand why you would believe such a thing, but as for judging your salvation, it would have to be primarily from watching your life in conjunction with your personal testimony of fulfilling the conditions of repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ.





    HP: Any time you take the God designed and instilled element of the will of man out of the picture, and produce an effect, as in this case perseverance, without the coupling with that notion in some limited fashion the cooperation of man as God designed him to cooperate, you will inevitably land in a labyrinth of error.
     
    #4 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 1, 2007
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Well why you are pinning that title onto your lapel, just be honest and logically consistent, and pin a five point Calvinist badge on next to it as well.
     
    #5 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 1, 2007
  6. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    Nope. Let's use your method.

    You come to me telling me that I am a sinner. You tell me that Jesus Christ died in my place. You explain that salvation is by grace thru faith, the gift of God, not of works. You read John 14:6, John 3:16-17, and Romans 10:8-13 to me. You then read Romans 8:35-39.

    I respond with "WOW! That's awesome!" And I then say that I believe what I have been told. I believe that God is who He says He is. Yep, I want to be counted among the saved. I want to start fellowshiping with Christians right away!

    Am I saved? For how long?
     
    #6 DQuixote, Apr 1, 2007
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Why do you make salvation so hard, and skip around as you do, but do not start with the first words the prophets came preaching, the first word our Lord came preaching, and the first words of instructions to prospective converts, i.e. “Repent!”

    The process is indeed simple and even a child can understand, IF we present it as Scripture does. I might tell you that it is great that you desire to fellowship with believers, and that that you feel the message is Awesome, and that you believe the same the devil believes and that is God is who He says He is, and that you have a desire to be saved, but have you fulfilled the first condition of salvation which Scripture informs us is to ‘repent’ and to turn from your sins? Any message of salvation that does not start with repentance is deficient. God calls on men everywhere to repent.

     
    #7 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 1, 2007
  8. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    As far as I am concerned, the act of believing incorporates repentance. One turns from what one once believed to a new belief in salvation by grace through faith. However, let's look at what Paul says about it.

    God reveals to Paul that salvation is not in Law, works, repentance and baptism, but in believing. Believe that Christ died for our sins, "was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures."


    So how does one become saved, born again, a child of God? It's in faith believing (not intellectually, mind you), that Christ died, was buried and rose again for me, for you, for everyone, for our sins, for whosoever will believe.

    When anyone can come to the place that he or she genuinely, totally and completely believes that, one is saved, filled with the Holy Spirit, and that for eternity. The authentic believer's eternal life begins at the moment one believes.

    ..........and that is NOT debateable! Case Closed! Truth wins! Amen!

    :jesus: :thumbs: :jesus:
     
    #8 DQuixote, Apr 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2007
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Do not the devils believe and tremble?
     
    #9 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 2, 2007
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I think our Greek scholars on the BB would tell you that the word 'believe' does not just imply an intellectual recognition of something or someone. 'Believe' in terms of salvation means: to adhere to, put faith in, trust, rely on. The demons 'believe' Jesus is God and tremble, but they do not trust in Him, rely on Him or have saving faith in Him.
     
    #10 Amy.G, Apr 2, 2007
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: It could be simply that God did not design salvation for the angels and they are not invited to participate in the plan of redemption for reasons only known to God.

    I agree that belief is not simply an intellectual assent, but I consider repentance and faith as two distinct conditions of salvation.
     
    #11 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 2, 2007
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    No, I don't think salvation is available to angels either. I think there is scripture to confirm it, but I haven't taken the time to look it up. :)

    I agree that repentance and faith are neccessary for salvation. I think they go hand in hand.
     
    #12 Amy.G, Apr 2, 2007
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I worded that wrong. I am not questioning their (3 pointers) salvation - I am pointing out that the reason, the logic that they use inside the form of Calvinism that they hold to - still has a consistent basis for OSAS even without Limited Atonement since they can always negate free will and say "the saints have no choice but to persevere" at any point in their argument.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Apr 2, 2007
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You would have to define "nothing to do with salvation". If you mean God ALONE has atoned for my sins and God ALONE has knocked on my heart and God ALONE has showed my heart the truth, then indeed salvation is ALL of God.

    Do you add to "salvation" man's free will to ACCEPT what he has been convicted of by God as truth? I say no, but nonetheless a choice is offered and one may choose to reject the offer. These folks will no doubt go their way and soon forget all about the time God pricked their heart to repent (unbelief to belief). Parable of the four soils.

    God Bless!
     
    #14 steaver, Apr 3, 2007
  15. Dustin

    Dustin New Member

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    I think the parable of the seed sower (the four soils, or whatever) could stand to be discussed in much more detail. Perhaps another thread could be started later.


    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Dustin
     
    #15 Dustin, Apr 3, 2007
  16. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    There is no objective test for salvation/regeneration. God didn't give us a list of the elect. The only assurance of salvation is continuing good works, see 1 John.
     
    #16 billwald, Apr 3, 2007
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Assurance rest SOLELY in faith in Christ. My works do not make me feel anymore secure in Christ, nor should they lest I have something to boast about. See Ephesians 2.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #17 steaver, Apr 3, 2007
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Rom 10)

    God Bless! :wavey:
     
    #18 steaver, Apr 3, 2007
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    ahhh yes - it is all "in the definition".

    One might as easily say that the Arminian way "is the Gospel" and the Calvinist way is the "False Gospel" so then let's ask the entire group - is mankind saved by the promises of the Gospel or "the false gospel"??

    By definining the terms first in a way bent toward one view only - the argument is skewed.

    So as pointed out above - Salvation is the plan and initiative of God alone - but HE CHOSE that in that plan - mankind must ACCEPT or remain doomed. In making that choice he did NOT co-opt the Gospel out to others as Calvinists accuse by their sly pre-definitions.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Apr 3, 2007
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