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OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Oct 13, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In an effort to make this simple so all can respond to the OP -


    Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


    1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay     close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.



    Heb 2:1-3
    1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

    Heb 3:6     but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
    and the boast of our hope     firm until the end.

    Heb 3:12-14
    12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
    13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
    by the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we have become partakers of Christ,     if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


    Hint: there is a self-conflicted double speak that claims that you can "fail to persevere in having what you never had to start with".

    For example in the case of Heb 3 above

    It is like saying "failure to retain your buick for 10 years instead of selling it after only 5 years is the sure sign you never had a buick". And what is the PROOF that you never had a buick "you only had one for 5 years not ten".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #21 BobRyan, Oct 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2007
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    At every failed attempt at ... what was that word of BobRyan's again ... 'debunking'! At every failed attempt at debunking OSAS BobRyan either opens a new thread, or takes another go at another thread. Lucky strike might one day come, and God give, that his eyes will be opened.
     
    #22 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 25, 2007
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Did I already post this inconvenient point?

    Hint: there is a self-conflicted double speak that claims that you can "fail to persevere in having what you never had to start with".

    For example in the case of Heb 3

    It is like saying "failure to retain your buick for 10 years instead of selling it after only 5 years is the sure sign you never had a buick". And what is the PROOF that you never had a buick "you only had one for 5 years not ten".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #23 BobRyan, Oct 25, 2007
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Your analogy is your error.

    How about this...It's like saying "failure to hold fast unto the end instead of holding fast unto the end is proof you never partaked of Christ".

    (Heb 3:12-14) We have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
    If one does not hold fast then one did not become a partaker of Christ.

    "We have become partakers of Christ, IF.........

    Let that "IF" settle in a bit before you conclude that you already have partaked of Christ, because IF you do not hold fast you have not partaked according to this verse.

    We have become partakers of Christ, IF

    IF.........IF...........IF........IF

    What must be the alternative if "IF' fails?

    Answer....you have not become a partaker of Christ. There is no other conclusion possible given the structure of the verse.

    Your buick analogy fails because this scripture does not conclude you partaked of Christ for five years and then stopped partaking. It concludes you HAVE (past particle) partaked of Christ IF you hold fast. It declares holding fast proves having partaked of CHrist.

    God Bless! :thumbs:


     
    #24 steaver, Oct 27, 2007
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    To become partakers of Christ is to not only accept salvation but also to persevere firm until the end for in the end we partake of the glorification in Christ "we do not know what we shall be - but we shall be like Him for we shall see him as he is" 1John 3.

    The argument is that if we continue in Christ all the way then we are fully partakers of Christ.

    It does NOT make the non-sensical OSAS argument "if we partake of Christ for a while but then fail to continue to partake of Christ then we never did partake of Christ to start with"

    The OSAS self-conflicted logic seems to never end and there appears to be no way to bend scripture to its usages.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #25 BobRyan, Oct 27, 2007
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I can't argue with that!

    Amen again, (except for blaming OSAS for this argument you speak of).

    The scripture in question does not say "if we partake of Christ". What does it say?

    "We have become partakers of Christ, IF.........

    Let's not rewrite the sentence.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #26 steaver, Oct 28, 2007
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    It does NOT make the non-sensical OSAS argument "if we partake of Christ for a while but then fail to continue to partake of Christ then we never did partake of Christ to start with"

    Then you need to pull OSAS out of the ditch it falls in when it tries to argue that the proof that someone is not a partaker of Christ is that they "did not KEEP ON partaking of Christ".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #27 BobRyan, Oct 29, 2007
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    OSAS argues no such thing. It argues that those who do not hold fast have NEVER partaked of Christ, just like the scripture says.

    "We have BECOME partakers of Christ, IF.........

    ......as opposed to your rewrite that says....

    "We ARE PARTAKING of Christ AND IF we do not hold fast until the end we STOPPED partaking of Christ"

    Just let it say what it says and find another verse that might serve your view better (good luck).

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #28 steaver, Oct 29, 2007
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay     close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

    The nonsensical "if you do not persevere in continuing to do this... if you only persevere for 5 years but not your whole life then you never were persevering for that 5 years period since you only persevered for 5 years" -- can not be construed or strained from scripture-- yet as we see it is so desperately "needed" by OSAS.

    We become full partakers with Christ in the glories to come IF we persevere firm until the end. -- But the nonsensical "you never did persevere if you only persevered for 5years" is not in scripture -- though needed by OSAS.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #29 BobRyan, Oct 29, 2007
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I'm not a scholar of greek grammer so i must rely upon those God gifted in this area, but I found a commentarian, James Freerkson, Th. D., from the King James Bible Commentary who writes this about (Hebrews 3:12-14)........

    "For we are made partakers. The verb uses the perfect tense (Gr gegonamen) and might be better understood if it were translated , "we have become". With it is placed the condition, if we hold...steadfast unto the end. Because of this condition, some propose that one cannot become, or at least be sure of becoming, a partaker until the end. If the verb were future, that would surely fit-we will be partakers if we hold fast. The verb, however, is perfect, expressing a completed action with existing results-we have become and remain partakers, if we should hold steadfast. If the verb were future, then the partaking would be based on one's ability or determination to hold on. As it is, the condition is a test by which one can know if he has faith-the test of continuance".

    Was answered...(1 Tim 4:16) Take heed...unto the doctrine of God and you will not be "giving heed....to doctrines of devils" (vs 1) . This is the contextual meaning of "save thyself". The hearers also will be saved from "giving heed to seducing spirits".

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #30 steaver, Oct 30, 2007
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is a great rewrite and edit of the text - but not exegesis no not even remotely!

    However all can agree that what you have posted above is clearly what you wish you had read in 1Tim 4:16 instead of what you found there.

    So for now the text STANDS as written --

    Quote:
    1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay     close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


    In "addition" we have the instruction about "doctrines of demons" which is in fact one of the ways that you could be DRAWN away from persevering (at some point) after Persevering for a while - drawn FROM that perseverance.

    But the nonsensical "twist" that argues "IF you only persevere for 5 years and then fall away THEN what you were persevering in was a demonic doctrine" is totally bogus because you could easily persevere EVEN LONGER in that demonic doctrine and failure to continue in perseverance in a demonic doctrine CAN NOT be the sign that you are not now saved! Rather failure to persevere in it IS to turn and be saved.

    So once again we have OSAS reaching for non-sensical distortions of the text to save itself.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #31 BobRyan, Nov 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2007
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Actually........

    1Ti 4:16Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    For now and for ever, amen!

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #32 steaver, Nov 3, 2007
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I prefer the NASB as quoted above for Timothy was not "persevering to GET saved" but to remain saved.
     
    #33 BobRyan, Nov 3, 2007
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I resist prefering anything and simply accept what it says........"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee".

    For now and for ever, amen!

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #34 steaver, Nov 4, 2007
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You don't mind their rewrite?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #35 steaver, Nov 4, 2007
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    NASB
    1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay     close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

    KJV

    1Ti 4:16Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Actually both options are problematic for OSAS both the NASB and the KJV option.

    Fortunately for me - one of the options is perfect for my view.
     
    #36 BobRyan, Nov 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2007
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


    1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay     close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.



    Heb 2:1-3
    1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

    Heb 3:6     but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
    and the boast of our hope     firm until the end.

    Heb 3:12-14
    12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
    13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
    by the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we have become partakers of Christ,     if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


    Hint: there is a self-conflicted double speak that claims that you can "fail to persevere in having what you never had to start with".

    For example in the case of Heb 3 above

    It is like saying "failure to retain your buick for 10 years instead of selling it after only 5 years is the sure sign you never had a buick". And what is the PROOF that you never had a buick "you only had one for 5 years not ten".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #37 BobRyan, Nov 4, 2007
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You have every right to be wrong.

    God Bless!:thumbs:
     
    #38 steaver, Nov 4, 2007
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You already tried this one and it was found lacking. Anything new?

    God Bless! :wavey:
     
    #39 steaver, Nov 4, 2007
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Actually that would be news if it were true -- for now it remains "fiction" but it does have fact to the extent that it is a fact that you wish you had answered the point with a compelling response.

    Certainly I can agree with your wish there as well -- I too wish you had done it.

    Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

    1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay     close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

    Heb 2:1-3
    1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it


    The question remains - what is the "Form" of the Bible text -- "a warning against a time when easter bunnies will fall from the sky"? (I.e warning about what can not possibly happen?)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #40 BobRyan, Nov 4, 2007
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