OSAS vs. Heb 6

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by PeterMeansRock, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. PeterMeansRock

    PeterMeansRock
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    How does one square this scripture which clearly talks about those who have received the gospel and tasted the heavenly bread which is Christ, the good word of god, who nevertheless fall away.

    Your thoughts?
     
  2. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
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    Heb 6 is talking about apostasy not loosing one's salvation. Consider the context of the book and the audience to which it was addressed.
     
  3. Hope of Glory

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    You beat me to the answer. Stop that.

    On second thought, keep it up.
     
  4. PeterMeansRock

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    So one may be in complete and willful apostacy and still attain heaven?
     
  5. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Absolutely. Salvation does not depend upon your works.

    Will you have to answer for it? Certainly. You could lose your inheritance, which is based on your behavior.
     
  6. Charles Meadows

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    I think this IS referring to apostasy from the church. Although given the context it would seem that church members in view here are those who flirted with the church and then returned to their previous stances, with their witness bearing out the fact that they never were truly "saved" to begin with.

    I will respectfully disagree with those who see this as referring to those who fall away but are somehow still saved.
     
  7. tamborine lady

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    ****************************

    What does the word inheritance,mean to you??

    Isn't our inheritance to be with Jesus? If we lose it we won't be there?

    There's only one place to be if your're not with Jesus!!

    :eek:

    Tam
     
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    Hebrews 6:4-6
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    I don't see how this could be describing one who was never 'truly' saved. In what sense is an unbeliever made a partaker of the Holy Ghost? How can an unbeliever crucify the Son of God afresh, when he has never had the blood applied to his sins a first time?
     
  9. jesusrocks

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    Also, what about Romans 11:22?

    "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

    The verse says "cut off". That's a pretty serious statement. To be cut off is to be severed completely. You're no longer a part of the vine if you have been severed from it.

    I don't think one can read this analogy and still claim that one is saved no matter what they do on earth because a person has confessed with their mouth-- even Christ Himself tells us that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 7:21).


    Furthermore, how can the fullness of Salvation (which is eternal life with God) be had before we are in Heaven with God?

    Thus, I would offer that the Bible speaks of three senses of Salvation: past, present, and future.

    Past:
    Romans 8:24
    Ephesians 2:5, 8
    2 Timothy 1:9
    Titus 3:5

    Present:
    Philippians 2:12
    1 Peter 1:9

    Future:
    Matthew 10:22
    Matthew 24:13
    Mark 8:35
    Acts 15:11
    Romans 5:9-10
    Romans 13:11
    1 Corinthians 3:15
    1 Corinthians 5:5
    Hebrews 9:28


    In speaking of the past sense, Salvation was won in Christ. Presently, we are working towards our own personal salvation that in the future we may be saved.

    *and by "working towards" don't get confused! I mean "work" in the way that Paul and James express in their epistles.
     
  10. Snitzelhoff

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    I have heard it said that Paul was engaging in a common type of Greek thought that took a hypothetical situation (losing one's salvation, for instance) and thought it through to its conclusion to show the folly in the hypothesis itself. In other words, he was arguing that you can't lose your salvation because, if you could, you could never regain it because you'd have to sacrifice Christ a second time.

    I'm just throwing that thought out there, not necessarily arguing one way or another.

    Michael
     
  11. Me4Him

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    Did God, in his "Foreknowledge", know Israel was going to reject Jesus, of course he did, yet he made promises to "Abraham" he knew he would have to keep even "if/when" Israel rejected Jesus.

    Once God makes a "DECISION" (to save), it's made forever, so what is the "Chastisement" for "Rebelling" against God??

    1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    The same thing Paul said for the church to do, God does to Israel, he "Literally" turns them over to Satan (AC) during the trib, those who confess Jesus, will for the most part, have their "FLESH" destroyed, (killed) by the AC, but their souls will be saved.


    And God, not being a "respector of person", will do the same for a "Christian" who rebells, just a Paul wrote.

    The bottom line is this, either we keep the "OLD MAN" (Flesh) crucified or God will allow Satan to do it for us.

    This is "Chastisement", not "WRATH", God only chastise his "OWN".
     
  12. steaver

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    This always has made the most sense of all theories to me. We know for sure that OSAS is a fact. The gift one is given AT conversion is ETERNAL life, therefore to believe that any other scripture teaches a loss of something eternal is to declare the Word of God contradictory and the definition of the word eternal void.

    One must consider that eternal means it cannot end, never. Therefore those seemingly difficult passages are not so difficult when one builds doctrine precept upon precept. If you bounce all over the bible you will just confuse yourself. OSAS is certain throughout, the definition of eternal alone should be enough to convince one to build their beliefs upon the certainty of OSAS. Every single "supposedly" anti-osas passage of scripture will always have a pro-osas interpretation allowing the scriptures to harmonize with the perfection God has given them.

    It's all about Jesus and nothing about you when it comes to salvation. Stop trying to steal some of God's glory for oneself!

    You will stay saved because of Jesus, not because of oneself!

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
  13. JackRUS

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    Hebrews 6:4-6 correctly interpreted.

    Dr E.R. Campbell in his "A commentary of HEBREWS Based on the Greet New Testament" has the following to say on 6:4-6. I am leaving out the words that are written in the Greek. Don't know how to type them.)

    4. "For it is impossible for those once having been enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gifts, and having been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,"

    The word order in our translation follows the order in the Greek test. The noun translated "impossible" means that God is not able, it is not possibsle for Him, holy and righteous as He is, to renew those who continue in a state of rebellious unbelief. The writer is not speaking of all the Hebrew believers in this verse, but of particular individuals, some who had professed to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah.

    He refers to these Hebrews as once "having been enlightened". The participle translated "having been enlightened" is in the aorist tense and passive voice, which means that someone in the past had taught them the elementary principles of the message of Christ. This means that they have been enlightened, and illuminated their minds.

    As we look at the whole scenario of these Hebrews, in light of all the information we have in the New Testament, we wonder what they really believed about Jesus beyond that fact that He is the prophesied Messiah. How many of them recognized that He died for their sins according to the Scripture (Isa. 53:5-6)?

    It appears to us that the first principles of Christ, which have been preached to them, primarily dealt with His Messiahship, rather then His redemptive ministry, the Cross. The fact that they had this initial elementary message preached to them does not necessarily mean that they were trusting Jesus Christ for salvation from sin (1Cor. 15:2-4; Acts 21:20).
    Next, we are told that these Hebrews had also once "tasted", sensed the taste of, and perceived the heavenly gift. It appears that the heavenly gift mentioned in this verse refers to either God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. Since the following phrase involves the Holy Spirit, the heavenly gift apparently refers to Jesus Christ (1Cor. 15:49; 2Cor. 9:15; Rom. 5:15; Eph. 1:22).

    These Hebrews had tasted of the incipient truth regarding Jesus Christ. They had been introduced to the things taught in the forepart of Acts. They had these scant fragments of truth, only tasted. They came to the brink of knowing Jesus Christ, but in the process of time, fell away from the little truth which had been presented to them.

    The particular Hebrew referred to in these verses had recognized that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. This was a head-trip based on the evidence, but they never ingested Him as the free and gratuitous gift of God who died to save them from sin. Many of them had receded from even the elemental truth which they had been taught.

    Instead of recognizing the real purpose of the death of Jesus Christ, they were still engrossed in the Mosaic Law and it sacrifices (Gal. 4:25).
    Furthermore, these early Hebrew are referred to as "having been made partakers of the Holy Spirit." The Greek verb translated "having been made" is in the aorist tense and passive voice, which means that in the past, God had made them partakers of the Holy Spirit.

    The Greek noun translated "partakers" is derived from the compound verb which literally means "to hold with", "to share" and "to have a partner relation" to the Holy Spirit. Apart from the prior and preparatory working of the Holy Spirit, the Hebrews, where were disgracing Jesus Christ, would not have originally even recognized Him as the Messiah (2Cor. 3:14-18). We must keep in mind, the language used in conjunction with the Holy Spirit in this verse does not indicate that the Spirit was actually in the Hebrews description in vs. 6 (Rom. 8-9).

    The language used in this verse indicates that "in the past" God had related, via His Spirit, to the particular Hebrews who where now crucifying Jesus Christ and exposing Him to open shame. These were Hebrews whom the Spirit convinced that Jesus is the Messiah, but who at that time were unaware that Christ had died for their sins, and who were still engaged in keeping the Law.

    5. "and having tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the coming age."
    In verse 4, Paul says that they had tasted the heavenly gifts, and in this verse he uses the same participle to say that had tasted the good Word of God. What we have already said about the meaning of this participle applies to this verse; namely, that they had been introduced to, acquainted with, and sampled the good Word of God.

    Before we continue to discuss further the meaning of the closely knit context in verses 4 through 6, we need to acknowledge that it consist of a series of four participles, the first one being preceded by the adverb "once". We interpret this to mean that the adverb "once" applies to all the participles; i.e. they had once been enlightened; they had once tasted of the heavenly gift; they had once been partakers of the Holy Spirit and had once tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the coming age.

    It is extremely important that we consider what was once, as recorded in the forepart of Acts, taught to these Hebrews who believed that Jesus is the Messiah. It appears to us the elementary principles which they were taught go back to the early days when thousands were acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah in Jerusalem and Judea (Acts 2:41; 4:4; 6:7). Back at this point in time; there is every reason to believe that these Hebrews continued to keep the Mosaic Law. In fact, at that point in time, the only thing which would have deterred them from offering the sacrifices of the Law would have been a clear understanding that Christ's death had fulfilled these - that He had died for their sin (Acts 21:20; Gal. 4:25). We have no reason to think that any or many of these Hebrews clearly comprehended the fact that Jesus Christ's death on the Cross fulfilled and replaced the Levitical offerings.

    It appears to us that the Epistle to the Hebrews was probably written thirty years after what is recorded in the first chapters of Acts took place. This means that what is written in this epistle covers a span of some thirty years. In the foregoing paragraph, we suggest that the elementary word of Christ refers to what was taught them in the first chapters of Acts. This was a time when the Messianic Kingdom was being offered to the nation of Israel. It was a period of time prior to the Church ministry of the Apostle Paul. In other words, it was a time when the truth taught related to Kingdom and not the Church, the Body of Christ, of which we are members.

    Now, looking at the Book of Hebrews from the writer's perspective, we need to recognize that dramatic changes took place between what was taught in the first part of Acts and beyond the last part of Acts. During this time, the Messianic Kingdom was rejected by Israel (Acts 7:15-20). Saul of Tarsus was miraculously saved and appointed the Apostle of the Church with a new message and name (Acts 9:3-19; 13:9: Eph. 3:2-9). Peter spent a great deal of time with Paul, highly respected him, and read what he wrote (Gal. 1:18; 2:11-21; 2 Peter 3:15-16). This mutual relationship, plus insight into what was written by the Spirit (Isa. 53:5-6; Matt 26:28), leads to the conclusion - Paul and Peter had a common salvation message based on the Cross - it is by Grace through faith (1 Cor. 15:3-4; 1 Peter 1:18-21).

    Lest some may think that we have strayed from the verse before us, Hebrews 6:5, let me affirm, our diverting has been for a definite reason. First, we recognize that after Israel rejected the Messianic Kingdom in Acts, chapter 7, God revealed a new organism, the Church, the Body of Christ, through which He would have a spiritual relationship with His people. The apostle through whom God revealed the truth for the Church was Paul. His ministry as primarily directed toward the Gentiles and the Jews in their midst. On the other hand, Peter's ministry was primarily directed toward the Jews in Jerusalem and Judea; however, his opportunity to minister to them was almost nil (Acts 9:27-30). This could be cited as a good reason why he wrote the epistle to them.

    In view of the context, we interpret the statement, "having tasted the good word of God," as primarily referring to the Kingdom message with both its present and future miracles. The gospel of the earthly Messianic Kingdom and miracles are inseparable (Matt. 10:7-8).
    6. "and having fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance, while they crucify again to themselves the Son of God, and are exposing Him to open shame."

    The aorist participle translated "having fallen away" may also be translated "havening fallen beside" or "defected from". The Greek infinitive translated "renew" may also be translated "to restore". The Greek noun translated "repentance" manes "a change of mind, thinking" and subsequent actions.

    Summarizing, those who have been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gifts (Christ), who have been made partakers of the Spirit, and who have tasted of the Word of God and miracles, if after they have done these things they fall away and defect, it is "impossible" to renew or restore them unto repentance or a change of mind while the continue crucifying Christ and continue exposing Him to disgraceful public shame.

    Verses 4-6 often erroneously cited to prove that a believer can lose his salvation. As we have explained, the language used in verses 4-5 speaks only of what have been made available and offered to these people, not of what they actually possessed.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Unfortunately the title of this topic: "OSAS vs. Heb 6"
    is absurd. Hebrews Chapter 6 is the PROOF TEXT for
    OSAS = Once Saved, Always Saved.

    PeterMeansRock: //How does one square this scripture which clearly talks
    about
    those who have received the gospel and tasted
    the heavenly bread which is Christ, the good word of god,
    who nevertheless fall away.//

    Obviously by your question is is not clear to you.

    The Random HOuse COLLEGE DICTIONARY, Revised Edition
    (Random House. 1982) p.1107:

    Reductio ad absurdum, n.
    Latin. a reduction to an absurdity; the refutation of
    a proposition by showing its logical conclusion as absurd.

    Snitzelhoff: //I have heard it said that Paul was engaging in a common type of Greek
    thought that took a hypothetical situation (losing one's salvation,
    for instance) and thought it through to its conclusion
    to show the folly in the hypothesis itself. In other words,
    he was arguing that you can't lose your salvation because,
    if you could, you could never regain it because you'd
    have to sacrifice Christ a second time.//

    Amen, Sibling Snitzelhoff -- RIGHT ON!!!
    I which I could explain things as concisely as Sib.Snitzelhoff.

    Unfortunatley, when I taught Logic in Public Schools, I found
    out that 94% of Public School students are not taught Logic by a
    competent teacher of Logic. This is Topic is a result of the
    dumbing down of American Youth :(

    (Please cite the Version used when quoting scriptures.
    You should have the version name right in fron of you when you
    paste (you don't type, I hope [​IMG] ) the scriputre into the BB
    posting buffer. I have to wade through several likely translations
    to figure out which the poster has fixed. I am required by the
    scripture to check out the scripture for completeness and
    correctness for every post I read.)

    One should read the CONTEXT of one's passage
    (it isn't necessary to always post that context).

    Hebrews 6:1-3 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

    Therefore, leaving the elementary message about
    the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not layihng again the
    foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,
    2 teaching about ritual washings, laying on of hands,
    the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement.
    3 And we will do this if God permits


    God Permitted. Paul spake of 'maturity ('perfection' in the KJV)
    - the doctine of OSAS.

    Unfortunately the Doctrine of Ignorance - that it is better for
    a person to be ignorant (not know) has taken it's toll throughout
    many denominations especially Baptists. One thing about the
    the Doctrine of Ignorance, it allows the phony pastors to fool
    the people easier. You older folks will remember when the
    Baptists were against the totally Catholic Doctrine of Ignorance,
    not even teaching their people to read so the Priestly class could
    Lord it over the ignorant masses.

    Now, what features of maturity does Paul talk about in Hebrews 6?

    Hebrews 6:4-6 - OSAS
    Hebrews 7:7-9 - the futility of the rebellion of the unsaved
    Hebrews 7:10-12 - saved people are diligent to do good works - always
    Hebrews 7:13-20 - the example of the Father of Faith - Abraham

    (BTW, the phrase in Hebrews 7:19:
    We have this Hope -- like a sure and firm anchor of
    the soul
    -- ...

    This phrase pretty much refutes any anti-OSAS moanings.
    You can be sure of the hope: OSAS - for it is firmly anchored
    in the Lord Messiah Jesus. Amen!
     
  15. riverm

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    I believe that there’s no state of grace one can reach where one could not of our own free will decide to reject God and finally lose one’s salvation.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Romans 3:3 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible):

    What then? If some did not believe, will their
    unbelief cancel God's faithfulness?
     
  17. riverm

    riverm
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    So what you’re saying is that I being saved today, cannot over a period of time by outright defiance of rebelling against God and willfully rejecting His Son to the point where I no longer believe in a man named Jesus or that He was even the Son of God, die in that state and still be saved?

    A relationship is two-way. I love my wife unconditionally and my wife loves me, it’s a two-way relationship. Let’s say my wife cheats on me and leaves me for another man and starts to defy everything I stand for. I may still love my wife, but my wife has left me and no longer loves me. Is there still a relationship?

    Now my mother will say that in regard to the first scenario above that I was never saved to begin with and if that’s the case, how does anyone know if their truly saved then?

    The trick is that we Christians continue to develop our relationship with Christ on a daily bases. If that is done, the chance of us losing our salvation is slim. My relationship with my wife is more important than the wedding event and the same can be said about my walk with Christ. My walk is just as important if not more, than the initiating event of accepting Christ.

    Blessings
     
  18. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso
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    Ezekiel 18 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
    24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
    25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
    26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
    28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
    31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


    We all have the freedom to choose. God is a righteous judge, and he can, and will take all things into consideration for each and every individual. He can be trusted implicitly. He is most certainly for us, not against us. Only, he will never force himself upon us.

    In order for God to create beings that truly had freedom of choice, he had to put it within their power to decide to disobey, and turn from him. This is nonsense though, because there is life only in him. Anyone who would desire not to be a part of God’s will, would be someone who was desiring not to be. For God is, and there is no other.

    Lucifer was the highest angel in heaven, perfect by creation. Who knows how long he lived as such, before he chose to separate himself from God. So likewise, he corrupted the innocence and perfection of Adam and Eve. These beings were created in the image of God, and yet they chose to rebel against him. Now here we are, fallen humanity. Freedom of choice is so important to God that He would rather become a servant of sinners and die a cruel death at their hands in order to save them, than force anyone of them to be His willing subjects.

    Now, those who believe OSAS say that He takes that choice away as soon as anyone accepts the gift of eternal life offered through Jesus Christ. Utter nonsense! God died for our right to choose. He will never take it away. If OSAS were true, we could never have ended up in the situation that we are in. The fact that we need to be saved, is proof positive that OSAS is a false doctrine.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  19. steaver

    steaver
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    riverm,

    What you have neglected in your studies is the fact that "saved" means "born again" which means born from above and born of God. It is an act of God, a birth, an event. You become saved, are being saved, and will be saved. It's a done deal.

    Through this birth you become God's child, God becomes your Father. This relationship cannot change no more than it can change among human Father and child relationships. The relationship that saves is genetic and not how well you get along with each other. Therefore, good child or naughty child you will always be a child because you have been born of God.

    Salvation is not about following a set of rules and being good. It is all about an act of God. Yes, you asked for it. But God did it and you cannot reverse it any more than you can reverse your pyhsical birthday here on earth. Now that is Good News! Why don't you want to feel the security that is in Jesus Christ? Anything less than ALL Jesus for salvation is boasting within yourself. The only "I" in salvation is "I called on Jesus Christ to save me". After that it is all God who declares you His own forever. Now, don't use your liberty in Christ for an occassion to sin if you don't want chastisement from your Father.

    God Bless!
     
  20. jesusrocks

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    because no one responded before: how can the fullness of Salvation be had before we are in Heaven?
     

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