Osas?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Moriah, Feb 15, 2012.

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  1. Moriah

    Moriah
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    God warns us in many scriptures that we can lose our salvation.

    These scriptures show us plainly and simply that God can cut us off.

    Roman11:17-22

    17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

    18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

    19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

    20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

    We see from these scriptures that the people spoken of whom God can also cut off are the Gentiles. The scriptures say to the Gentiles that God can cut them off; this shows that they did have salvation.

    For anyone to still deny the Word of God, and teach that we CANNOT lose our salvation, those people ARE GOING AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD.
     
    #1 Moriah, Feb 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2012
  2. Amy.G

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    The branches that were cut off always refer to unbelievers who produce no fruit. Believers are never cut off from Christ.
     
  3. Salty

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    I find it interesting that your profile says very little about you and your blog says even less.

    There are many scriptures which show us that the Lord will never forsake us.

    One question: If you do loose your salvation, and then get re-saved (even if it is possible) are you to be re-baptized each time?
     
  4. Moriah

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    The branches were a part of the tree some branches are cut off. I would like to know much simpler does it have to get.
     
  5. convicted1

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    The cut off branches were the unbelieving Jews. They were God's chosen people, but when they refused to believe Jesus and His sayings, they were cut off, and we Gentiles, were grafted in.
     
  6. Moriah

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    I love to talk about the Word of God. I do not like to talk about myself, except my life concerning the Word of God. Why is it interesting that my profile and blog says very little about myself?
    Jesus will not forsake us, but someone might forsake Jesus. If you forsake Jesus, do you think your life does not change at all? I believe we can and SHOULD be sure of our salvation. The scriptures tell us to be sure of our salvation.
    This is a good question. The Bible speaks to us about believing and remaining in Jesus, and not so much about people coming and going and coming back. We know it is not good to fall away. There is that one scripture that speaks of it being impossible for one being enlightened to fall away then to be able to come back. The thing is though, is that I think that many people fall away before they had true understanding and great enlightenment. Another thing to consider is if they truly fell away by entering a new belief, or going back to an old false belief. God is Merciful. God knows all and I trust He is a truly righteous judge. As for being baptized again, that would be the decision of the person. Did they truly understand what the water baptism meant the first time?
    I would like to ask you if you personally see how the warning not to fall away gives you a stronger reason to maintain your part in the personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
     
  7. WestminsterMan

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    Moriah. Could you address how someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life?

    WM
     
  8. annsni

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    If I can do anything to take away my salvation, that means salvation is earned by my merit. That is unbiblical. Instead, the fact that my name is graven on His hand and that NO one can snatch me from Him means that I am secure. Eternally so. Praise Him!!!!! I have been adopted - I cannot be adopted - unadopted - adopted - unadopted......
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    If salvation is being connected to the tree as branches, then what about those branches that Paul says have been "broken off" but yet God will "graft them in again? Does that mean one can be saved, then lost and then resaved? Hebrews 6:6 says it is impossible to renew again to repentance those who fall away?

    Rom. 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off......23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

    Those referred to in verse 17 were the Christ rejecting Jews who were never saved in the first place and yet they were part of the tree. Hence, the tree cannot equal salvation as those who were broken off were never saved at all.

    I suggest to you that the two trees represents the professing people of God in regard to two classes of people - The Nation of Israel - Jews and the wild olive tree the nations of the gentiles. God came to Israel first and as a people they were the professing people of God (Mt. 23) a mixture of tares with the good seed of the kingdom (Mt. 13) but they rejected Jesus Christ and so they were cut off AS A NATION and the Gentile nations were grafted in. Now the professing people of God are among the Gentiles nations (mixture of tares and the good seed), but if the Gentile nations reject Christ, then, they too will be cut off.
     
  10. Moriah

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    The scriptures tell you how.
     
  11. Moriah

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    Are you saying because we have to do SOMETHING that that means salvation is ONLY by our own merit? How do you not see both sides?

    What you teach is unbiblical. Tell me, do you believe we are to be servants of God? I hope you say yes. So now, if we are servants of God, tell me, what kind of servant are you if you do NOTHING?

    No one can snatch you from God. That means no person can snatch you from God, that does not mean God keeps you against your will.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Which book of the living?

    "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and BLOT OUT THEIR NAME FROM UNDER HEAVEN...." - Deut. 9:14

    Where is their name blotted out "from......"???? "UNDER heaven"!!

    What about the book of the living whose names are written "IN" heaven???

    Do you distiguish between PHYSICAL life versus SPIRITUAL life? There is a time appointed for man once to die (Heb. 9:27) and when that appointed time comes they are removed from the book of the living UNDER heaven.

    "And the LORD said not that he would BLOT OUT THE NAME OF ISRAEL FROM UNDER HEAVEN; but he SAVED them BY THE HAND OF JEROBOAM..." - 2 Kings 14:27

    How did "the hand of Jeroboam" save them from being blotted out "FROM UNDER HEAVEN"???? If this is the book of the Lamb's book of life or SPIRITUAL life, can we be saved by the hand of a man like Jeroboam from being blotted out UNDER heaven?

    In contrast to the book of PHYSICAL Life where you name remains as long as you remain alive UNDER heaven there is the book of the Lamb's book of Life IN heaven or the book of SPIRITUAL life that was written before the world began.

    In addition to these two books of life there is the additional third book of the living regarding those who live in the New Jerusalem. Not all the "saved" will live in the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:24) but some of the "saved" will live outside the New Jerusalem upon the New Earth and walk only in the light of the city and only their kings bring "their honor into the city." Hence, this city book of the living cannot possibly be equal to being "saved" because many "saved" in the new heaven and earth do not live in the city but outside the city.

    1. The book of the Physical living
    2. The book of the Spiritual living
    3. The book of the Faithful living
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Feb 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2012
  13. Moriah

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    The Jews were saved for following the law, but through Jesus, we must all be saved by believing. The Jews who did not believe in Jesus, they were cut off, they can be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief.

    I already said what I believe about this in a previous post. In case you missed it, I want to say again that think it depends on how much the person understood when saved, how much enlightenment they really had while saved.
    The Jews who were cut off WERE SAVED. THEY WERE PART OF THE TREE! THAT TELLS US THEY WERE SAVED. Works saved them, but now we are saved by faith, we must all repent and have true repentance. The Bible tells us that the Jews were God’s chosen by the observing of the law. When a Jew sinned, they could give a sin offering, etc., but there were Jews who gave sin offerings but they were not sorry. God did not like that. When we are saved now, we must really be sorry for our sins and turn from them.
    There are not two trees in salvation.
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Do you think what you say equals what God says? Do you think you can be wrong about anything or does God always speak through you?
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    Paul says the Jews could never be justified by following the law:

    Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    You say the Jews can be saved by the law but Paul says they cannot. Shall we believe an inspired man or you?


    The writer of Hebews says that "if they fall away it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance" -Heb 6:6

    The Bible does not recognize a third class of people but only two classes - lost or saved, child of God or child of Satan; regenerated or unregenerated.

    The writer of Hebrews says those that "fall away" cannot be renewed againt to repentance but you say it depends on how much they knew! Shall we believe an inspired man or you???
     
  16. Moriah

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    What you say about being saved and not really being saved is a confusing mess.
    If I understand you correctly, you believe some are taken from a physical life on earth earlier than normal because of sin, thus blotted from a book of physical life. In addition, you believe there is another life, a spiritual life that no one can be taken out of ever. You also believe some people will have eternal life on the new earth but not really be saved. I do not believe in what you believe.
     
  17. Moriah

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    Therefore, with this question to me from you is an admission that you think God is speaking through you.
     
  18. Amy.G

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    No. Jesus used the analogy of gardening because they could understand it. When a branch is dead, it is cut off. Dead branches are unbelievers.
    Jesus said that if the Jews had believed God they would believe Him. So anyone who rejected Christ was already an unbeliever (a dead branch).

    The grafting back in is referring to the nation of Israel. Israel has been cut off temporarily, but will return to the Lord during the tribulation and be grafted back in.
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    What is a mess is your attempt to explain what you think I believe. Your thinkiing does not represent what I said or believe. So no, you do not understand me correctly.

    Every man will phsycially die at his appointed time (Heb. 9:27) regardless if he is righteous or unrighteous. That appointed time is metaphorically represented as being "blotted out from UNDER heaven." Thus the metaphor is a book of the PHYSICALLY living and when their appointed time UNDER HEAVEN has come, they are metaphorically viewed as being "blotted out."

    You correctly understand the Lamb's book of Life written IN heaven to be in regard to those SPIRITUALLY alive due to the "Lamb" sacrifice for them and that is why it is called "THE LAMBS book of the living." These are written in this book before the world began and will never be blotted out without blotting out the Lamb their substitute.

    You misunderstand the third book or the New Jerusalem or city book of the living. In the new heaven and earth, there will be "saved" who live in the city and "saved" who live outside the city (Rev. 21:24). Hence, where you live makes no difference about the state of your salvation as the saved live inside and outside. However, those who live inside the city in the new heaven and earth do so because their names have not been blotted out of the City's book of the living. Those "saved" living out side the New Jerusalem in the New heaven and earth are outside because their names were blotted out of the City's book of the Living. The difference between being blotted out and not blotted out depends upon your works not your salvation.

    Take note that both those living inside and outside the city in Revelation 21-22:2 are all equally saved and all AFTER the Great White Judgement seat has already occurred before the New heaven and new earth had been created (Rev. 19). So both those outside and inside are "saved" and living long after the Great White Judgement throne has occurred.
     
  20. WestminsterMan

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    Most Baptists hold to OSAS. Except for perhaps Free Will Baptists. I was just curious if you would use those verses to prove your position.

    WM
     
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