Our Undergirding

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Van, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. Van

    Van
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    Pistis is the transliteration of the Greek term translated in the KJV as "faith" Pistis is formed from two roots, "Piq" meaning bind, and "tis" having the same function as "er" in English. So fundamentally, the Greek term means "binder" or that which binds.

    Now lets look at how the Bible defines the term contextually. Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The word translated "substance" comes from the Greek hupostatis, which means "under" "stand" having nothing to do with comprehension, but rather with what undergirds what we stand for. So "faith" is what undergirds our hope for the realization of the promises of God. The next word of interest, "evidence" comes from the Greek elegchos, which means that which brings to light what is not easily seen. For example, in 2 Timothy 3:16, the AV translates it "reproof" indicating scripture is profitable because it brings to light our sins.

    In summary, Faith (Pistis) refers our heart-felt conviction that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah sent from God, and this conviction binds us such that our subsequent attitudes, hopes and deeds are tied to the reality of Jesus as our Savior.

    As Paul liked to say, referring to Habakkuk, the righteous man lives by faith. Do we live like someone indebted to the one who saved us, a bondservant of Christ, or like some ungrateful twit?
     
    #1 Van, Jul 6, 2013
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  2. The Archangel

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    Boy Oh Boy! You could not be more wrong! I'm actually here at my computer laughing because you clearly have no earthly idea about this.

    What is more you failed to cite your sources, surprise, surprise. It takes more than looking at "ibiblio.org" to actually know Greek.

    Problem: There is not "Q" in Koine Greek.

    What you've read is a transliteration where the "q" is used because the Greek font that is widely used by those who know Greek, the "q" produces θ. Oh, wait, you don't know that that is.....my bad. Θ is the Greek letter "theta" and it produces the "th" sound.

    Secondly, whatever the root of the word πίστις is, oh, sorry....let me use English so that you might understand... Whatever the root of the word "pistis" is, pistis itself has a range of uses within the semantic domain, and "binder" isn't one of them.

    In fact, the root word you're looking for is πείθω. That is written in English as "peitho." Here is the a reputable source's explanation:

    3982. πείθω peíthō; fut. peísō, aor. pass. epeísthēn, perf. pass. pépeismai, 2d perf. pépoitha. To persuade, particularly to move or affect by kind words or motives.[1]


    Here's what a reputable, and citable, source says about πίστις:

    31.85 πιστεύωb; πίστιςb, εως f: to believe to the extent of complete trust and reliance—‘to believe in, to have confidence in, to have faith in, to trust, faith, trust.’ [2]

    4411 πίστις (pistis), εως (eōs), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ DBLHebr 575; Str 4102; TDNT 6.174—1. LN 31.43 what can be believed, a state of certainty with regard to belief (Ac 17:31); 2. LN 31.85 trust, believe to a complete trust (Mk 11:22; Ac 24:24; Eph 4:29 v.r.); 3. LN 31.88 trustworthiness, the state of complete dependability (Ro 3:3); 4. LN 31.102 Christian faith, belief in the Gospel (Ro 1:8; Eph 2:8; Gal 1:23; Jude 3); 5. LN 31.104 doctrine, the content of what is to be believed (Gal 1:23; Jude 3), for another interp, see prior; 6. LN 33.289 promise, pledge to be faithful (1Ti 5:12) [3]

    ANYWAY....you really shouldn't pretend to know Greek. You aren't fooling anyone.

    The Archangel




    [1] Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament, electronic ed. (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000).

    [2] Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, vol. 1, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 375.

    [3] James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament), electronic ed. (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Van.......how many times must you be taken to the greek woodshed and corrected
     
  4. The Archangel

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    Really....

    You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I don't know..." There's nothing wrong with looking at sources (as long as they're properly cited) and arguing: "So and so says _______________ ." There's nothing wrong with drawing conclusions from what other people say.

    But, this? This is presenting one's self as having facility in a language that, as it is already well-known--and by his own admission, he has no facility in. This is putting forward someone else's thoughts as one's one--Plagiarism.

    It's a sad demonstration of many things.

    <shakes head>

    The Archangel
     
  5. Van

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    Folks, did you hear that profanity is the crutch of a crippled mind? Well the use of attacks against the person expressing a view is a crutch of a weak argument against that view. Pay no attention to Calvinists who disparage people and sidestep the view expressed.

    1) I said pistis was a transliteration. So is "piq" and "Q" is in our alphabet. When you transliterate, you take how the Greek word sounds, and express it phonetically using our alphabet. LOL

    2) "Peitho" is indeed the root word from which pistis comes, and peitho comes from the root idea "to bind." See Thayers folks, so neither Archangel or Iconoclast even bothered to read the Lexicons.

    3) When I address the underlying Greek word, presented in its transliterated form, all I am doing is using a Interlinear which provides the information. No claim other than study in English of what scholars say about those words and grammar is made. So the "you are pretending to know Greek, when I say I know nothing of Greek, is simply a slander, and insult, and a manufactured disparagement of my effort to study God's word. This is all Calvinism has to offer folks, LOL.

    Bottom line, lets return to the topic, and sidestep those whose goal seems to derail any actual discussion of the Bible.
     
    #5 Van, Jul 7, 2013
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  6. Van

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    Pistis is the transliteration of the Greek term translated in the KJV as "faith" Pistis is formed from two roots, "Piq" meaning bind, and "tis" having the same function as "er" in English. So fundamentally, the Greek term means "binder" or that which binds.

    Now lets look at how the Bible defines the term contextually. Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The word translated "substance" comes from the Greek hupostatis, which means "under" "stand" having nothing to do with comprehension, but rather with what undergirds what we stand for. So "faith" is what undergirds our hope for the realization of the promises of God. The next word of interest, "evidence" comes from the Greek elegchos, which means that which brings to light what is not easily seen. For example, in 2 Timothy 3:16, the AV translates it "reproof" indicating scripture is profitable because it brings to light our sins.

    In summary, Faith (Pistis) refers to our heart-felt conviction that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah sent from God, and this conviction binds us such that our subsequent attitudes, hopes and deeds are tied to the reality of Jesus as our Savior.

    As Paul liked to say, referring to Habakkuk, the righteous man lives by faith. Do we live like someone indebted to the one who saved us, a bondservant of Christ, or like some ungrateful twit?
     
  7. Van

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    Romans 1:17, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.” Here we see Paul, referring to Habakkuk 2:4. An interesting tidbit is the "by" faith. The Greek word, transliterated "ek" means out of or from and indicates origin. Thus the way a righteous man lives has its origin and comes from his faith, how he is bound by his indebtedness to Christ who removed his sin burden, thus a righteous man.

    Paul presents this idea many times, it is central to his inspired teachings. It undergirds everything he teaches in the Pauline letters.
     
  8. Van

    Van
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    Did Paul consider himself a "bondservant" (NASB) of Christ?

    Did James consider himself a "bondservant (NASB) of Christ?

    Did John consider himself a "bondservant (NASB) of Christ?

    Do you consider yourself a "bondservant" of Christ?

    Does your faith bind you to Christ, as to someone you owe everything to and thus willingly serve Him?

    Did you bother to learn all that Christ commanded.

    How much like Christ have you become.

    Do you have compassion for the lost.

    "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

    Would Christ, covered in scars, smile at you and say, "Oh you of little faith?

    God Bless
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    Guess van has got to learn the old Dirty harry line about 'a man gots to know his limitations!"

    Greek and especially Hebrew are areas where best to admit that we don't know that much if we really don't, and rely upon the 'experts" who do!
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    maybe van is having a hard time quoting reputable sources, as not many actually agree with him!
     
  11. Van

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    Again, two Calvinists, talking about the character and qualifications of an opponent, but never actually addressing the topic of the thread.

    They have demonstrated they did not know the root word of faith means that which binds, so ignorant of basic word meanings. They did not know, or pretended not to know what transliteration means, so ignorant of basic word meanings. They did not know or pretended they did not know how to use an interlinear, so ignorant of basic word study tools.

    Calvinism exists by the blind, leading the blind, they are springs without water, bashing others to hide their mistaken doctrines.

    I cite Thayers, and they falsely claim I did not cite a source. Calvinism is defended by posting one falsehood after another folks. LOL
     
  12. Van

    Van
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    Pistis is the transliteration of the Greek term translated in the KJV as "faith" Pistis is formed from two roots, "Piq" meaning bind, and "tis" having the same function as "er" in English. So fundamentally, the Greek term means "binder" or that which binds.

    Now lets look at how the Bible defines the term contextually. Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The word translated "substance" comes from the Greek hupostatis, which means "under" "stand" having nothing to do with comprehension, but rather with what undergirds what we stand for. So "faith" is what undergirds our hope for the realization of the promises of God. The next word of interest, "evidence" comes from the Greek elegchos, which means that which brings to light what is not easily seen. For example, in 2 Timothy 3:16, the AV translates it "reproof" indicating scripture is profitable because it brings to light our sins.

    In summary, Faith (Pistis) refers to our heart-felt conviction that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah sent from God, and this conviction binds us such that our subsequent attitudes, hopes and deeds are tied to the reality of Jesus as our Savior.

    As Paul liked to say, referring to Habakkuk, the righteous man lives by faith. Do we live like someone indebted to the one who saved us, a bondservant of Christ, or like some ungrateful twit?

    Romans 1:17, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.” Here we see Paul, referring to Habakkuk 2:4. An interesting tidbit is the "by" faith. The Greek word, transliterated "ek" means out of or from and indicates origin. Thus the way a righteous man lives has its origin and comes from his faith, how he is bound by his indebtedness to Christ who removed his sin burden, thus a righteous man.

    Paul presents this idea many times, it is central to his inspired teachings. It undergirds everything he teaches in the Pauline letters.

    Did Paul consider himself a "bondservant" (NASB) of Christ?

    Did James consider himself a "bondservant (NASB) of Christ?

    Did John consider himself a "bondservant (NASB) of Christ?

    Do you consider yourself a "bondservant" of Christ?

    Does your faith bind you to Christ, as to someone you owe everything to and thus willingly serve Him?

    Did you bother to learn all that Christ commanded.

    How much like Christ have you become.

    Do you have compassion for the lost.

    "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

    Would Christ, covered in scars, smile at you and say, "Oh you of little faith?

    God Bless
     
  13. saturneptune

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    Self-confession is good for the soul.
     
  14. Van

    Van
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    The word transliteraed as Pistis, and translated as faith in Hebrews 11:1 comes from the root word G3982. Strongs Lexicon G4102.

    STRONGS NT 3982: πείθω (Thayer's Lexicon)

    πείθω ((from the root meaning 'to bind'; allied with πίστις, fides, foedus, etc.; Curtius, § 327; Vanicek, p. 592)); imperfect ἔπειθον; future πείσω; 1 aorist ἐπεισα; 2 perfect πέποιθα; pluperfect ἐπεποίθειν (Luke 11:22); passive (or middle, present πείθομαι; imperfect ἐπειθομην); perfect πέπεισμαι; 1 aorist ἐπείσθην; 1 future πεισθήσομαι (Luke 16:31); from Homer down;

    Bottom line each and every Calvinist that has implied however artfully, that they were clueless as to the meaning of faith is shown to be making bogus arguments, for the purpose of harassment rather than enlightenment. That is all they have folks, because truth is not on their side.
     
    #14 Van, Jul 9, 2013
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  15. Van

    Van
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    Paul presents this idea many times, it is central to his inspired teachings. It undergirds everything he teaches in the Pauline letters.

    Did Paul consider himself a "bondservant" (NASB) of Christ? Yes, Romans 1:1 NASB

    Did James consider himself a "bondservant (NASB) of Christ? Yes, James 1:1 NASB

    Did John consider himself a "bondservant (NASB) of Christ?Yes, Revelation 1:1 NASB

    Do you consider yourself a "bondservant" of Christ? Yes as each and every born again believer does.

    Does your faith bind you to Christ, as to someone you owe everything to and thus willingly serve Him?Yes, but our faith does not bind us as strongly as it should if we had more love, devotion and trust in our Savior

    Did you bother to learn all that Christ commanded. Yes, I posted the study on this forum.

    How much like Christ have you become. I am so far from being like Christ I am not worthy to untie His shoes, but each day I continue to try and grow more like Him in every way.

    Do you have compassion for the lost. Yes, like many Christians, I have tried to help others come to putting their trust in Christ, for example working in AWANA

    "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:i teaches that our faith undergirds our hope and trust in the promises of God, and brings to light how well we follow Christ in paths of righteousness.

    Would Christ, covered in scars, smile at you and say, "Oh you of little faith? Yes, but He has opened His arms to me as the least of His
     
  16. agedman

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    Van, you are constructing a very well stated argument, however, as I read your points, I see them more aligned with the typical Calvinist thinking than I do supporting a non-cal view of free choice / will. This seems verified by you in the list of "bond servant" folks.

    Is it not true that when some would suggest free will / choice in relationship to salvation, usually they also construct faith as some self generated human volition?


    I seem to recall you clinging to the thinking that faith was that which a person innately possesses, that a person must determine out of their own volition to accept Christ.

    Given that as your view and in comparison to what you are presenting, how is it that a person who is innately "free" to choose to be bound then forever loose such a capacity of freedom and later not have just as much freedom of choice to reject the bondage and therefore no longer be saved?

    If on one hand you present the believer is bound to Christ, how then can you present freedom of will and choice?

    Like I stated above, it seems you are making a case more aligned with some calvinistic thinking.

    One more thought.

    You posted that great passage of Hebrews about Faith.

    Faith has substance.

    From where is that substance derived - from fallen heathen evil intent or from the unmerited favor of God?

    If it comes from fallen evil intent, what guarantee is derived that that which is hoped for has anything of quality relating to eternal value?

    Faith is evidence.

    From where is the evidence derived - from fallen heathen evil intent of from the unmerited favor of God?

    If it comes from fallen evil intent, what guarantee is derived that that evidence has veracity to not be held as perjured under the judgment of God in Christ?
     
  17. The Archangel

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    This is the perfect illustration of the so-called "root fallacy"

    You will never learn, not because you are fundamentally incapable, but because you incapacity is a result of a stolid unwillingness to learn from those who actually know.

    The Archangel
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    Remember that to Van, ANY information that even hints at being calvinistic in theology is autpmatically wrong/suspect!

    And Thayers was used last century, but there are better sources to cite at present!
     
  19. Van

    Van
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    Yes, Agedman, my views very closely align with Calvinism. As I have said, over and over, Calvinism started with truth, then by extrapolation, plunged into error.

    The error of most of the free will advocates, and actually many Calvinists, is to believe saving faith is made up of believing the right things in the right way. For Calvinists, this meritorious faith is instilled into the lost via irresistible grace.

    However, if you study scripture, you will find a flawed faith, no better than a filthy rag (Isaiah 64:6) is credited as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5;24. Therefore salvation does not depend on the man that somehow acquires "saving faith" but upon God who has mercy.

    Yes, I cling to the idea that whoever believes in Him shall not perish. We have been all through the words found for believing and accepting and receiving, and taking and making our own. Tons of scripture teach this truth. God requires that we seek God and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

    But here is where I part ways with my Arminian friends. Trusting does not automatically save a person, they somehow magically do not end up "in Christ" by fiat. God must credit that faith, or not, as He did not for those of Matthew 7:21-23.

    Since a person does not put themselves in Christ by choosing to believe, neither can they put themselves out of Christ by choosing not to believe. Once born anew, we cannot undo. I am proud of that, I invented it, and everyone should realize it rhymes. And it makes an important point those who claim to be able to choose to leave God's hand, if they have been born anew, they cannot somehow become un-born anew.

    The view I am presenting in this thread, is the level of strength of the bond. Are we like post-it notes, that have little adhesion, and can be pulled away by adversity, worldly concerns, and the like, or are we bound to Christ like super-glue, unable to depart from our love and devotion and servant-hood toward Christ?

    Where does that substance, that undergirding come from. The issue is not where it comes from, we trust in what God has revealed, the issue is how strongly do we trust, a little or do we go "all in." Note also 1 Peter 1:3-5, if we are born anew, God protects our faith by His power such that we would never choose to deny Christ. Those that do, as John taught we not of us, i.e. were never born anew, Christ never knew them.

    Next, faith is not evidence, you have it backwards our faith provides, sheds light upon our life, so that it brings to light where we are not on Christ's path of righteousness. I covered this in the OP. The word translated evidence in Hebrews 11:1 means to shed light upon, or bring to light, or make evident. When we fail to go with Christ, when we pull away, our faith tugs upon us, and sheds light, brings to our attention, we are pulling away, if it is not like a post-it note.

    Bottom line, all those Calvinists who are trying to harass me have nothing whatsoever against anything I have said in this thread, they are maligning me because of what I believe about Calvinism.
     
    #19 Van, Jul 9, 2013
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  20. Van

    Van
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    The root fallacy and the rootless fallacy are two sides of the same coin, you do not assume words have no inherent meanings, but also you do not assume how a word is used does not point one of its inherent meanings. Thus faith, meaning trust fully in Christ, contains the idea that we are bound to Christ by the strength of that faith. Hence, born again believers are bondservants of Christ. No Calvinist would deny this. So all the shuck and jive is .... shuck and jive.
     

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