Paige Patterson "Takes the Hill!" @ SWBTS

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by Rhetorician, Sep 18, 2009.

  1. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician
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    To all who seek truth through knowledge:

    If you are Baptist you might be interested to read this.

    If you are Southern Baptist then you have to read this.

    Paige Patterson, President of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, has done a unique thing. Here is the link. I would like to know what you think? I am flabbergasted and do not know what to think.

    Read for yourself and get back to me.

    http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=31277

    "That is all!"
     
  2. Baptist Believer

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    I'm having a hard time believing that he would be so idiotic as to fire a .50 Browning machine gun in the chapel. That would likely cause hearing damage to everyone near the stage (and possibly well beyond, depending on the current acoustics of the chapel), as well as cause significant distress to those who aren't used to someone firing weapons in their direction.

    As a someone who carries a firearm most places (obviously, I wouldn't have one at the seminary), I would scramble for cover and draw my weapon (not blanks) to determine if there was a way to eliminate the threat of the gunman. In this day and time, no responsible person would conduct a skit with weapons fire... ESPECIALLY in Fort Worth just 10 years from the Wedgwood Baptist shooting (9/15/1999) where many people failed to react because they thought the gunman was part of a skit.

    I sincerely hope Baptist Press has unintentionally given the wrong impression or I am going to start wondering about Patterson's sanity.

    Regarding the canvasing of the neighborhoods, I live just over a mile from the Southwestern campus (less than a mile as the crow flies) and I happened to be home once when the seminarians came by to "witness" as part of their requirement to go door-to-door about a year ago. I was in my study working on the computer and someone rang the doorbell. I immediately got up, walked down the hall and looked out the door (about 15 seconds), and I saw two young men with Bibles walking up to the front door of the neighbor's house across the street. I stepped outside to see what was going on and I watched them ring the neighbor's doorbell. Without pausing, they immediately turned, stepped off the neighbor's porch and started walking quickly to the next house. I waved at them to get their attention and called, "May I help you?" They ignored me and went to the next house and ran the doorbell, immediately turned and went to the next house.

    It was clear they really didn't want to talk to anyone and they seemed to want to be able to say they went door-to-door. However, they chose to do it mid-week from about 3:00-4:00 p.m. when it is most likely no one will be home.

    While I think it is fine to urge students to evangelize, unless the students are internally-motivated by God's love and concern for others, and empowered by the Spirit, it is wasted effort.
     
  3. Joseph M. Smith

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    My first reaction was that guns and armored vehicles are all the wrong metaphor.

    But Patterson did, in a measure, redeem himself by asserting that these are not the right weapons. I assume he was speaking from/about II Corinthians 10 or something like it.

    I had not thought about the Wedgwood anniversary, but I agree that it seems tasteless if you factor that in. Anyone living in Ft. Worth would have had that in their minds.

    The incidents you report do suggest that Seminary Hill is something of a "burned over district", as the term was used for western New York after the 19th Century revivals. Do we really suppose that knocking on doors produce results? Actually, as I was writing this response, my doorbell rang, and it was a young man trying to sign people up for an environmental group. I gave my standard speech ... I am not signing any petitions or giving any money to groups I know nothing about. Wouldn't that be a somewhat standard reaction when someone comes to your door? I do not invite ANYBODY in who is peddling anything.
     
  4. Baptist Believer

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    Yep. However, I would have no problem with something like that on video, played to the chapel audience as an introduction, with Patterson walking out immediately after the video in the military get-up I imagine he wore. It makes a great imagination-capturing illustration.

    I'm hoping that's what he did. However, I can't tell from Baptist Press if he fired an automatic weapon in the chapel or if it was on video. I hope someone can clear that up.

    UPDATE: If you go to the seminary's site with the story, you can see the mounted Browning on the Fast Attack Vehicle (the dune-buggy-looking thing). Wow. I thought he would have more sense than that.

    Yep. Given that most of the students at Southwestern are from other places, it might not have made as much of a negative impact, but for a number of faculty and staff who live here long-term, it would be a very unpleasant parallel... definitely not a way to positively connect with your audience. But even most of the seminarians were in middle school or high school at the time of the shooting and would have likely remembered the event as it was directly connected to the "See You at the Pole" campaign.

    And of course, that doesn't even factor in the prospect of hearing damage to the audience.

    Fort Worth has seen a lot of religious excitement and activity over the years. Because a lot of the foolishness that has gone on at the seminary and prominent Baptist churches in the North Texas region for the last couple of decades, there's a bit of a skeptical attitude toward that institution.

    I've knocked on a lot of doors over the years, but it is generally rather ineffective, especially in an urban setting. In recent years, a significant number of people who knock on your door are trying to do a sales scam and/or check to see if you (or a dog) are home before they go to the back of your home and break in. Most women I know (including my wife) will not answer their door if they are alone at home.

    Frankly, I think Patterson has lost touch with effective ways to reach people. One of the best personal evangelists I know was a recent Southwestern graduate who simply decided he was going to go to a certain Starbucks every weekday for one hour at a consistent time and build relationships with other regular customers. Not much happened the first few weeks, but other regular customers saw him every day and he was gradually able to make casual conversation with them in a neutral environment. As it always happens when you build real relationships with people, eventually spiritual issues or crises come up and you have an opportunity to share your faith in an authentic way. He saw a number of people converted and get involved in church life through his simple ministry to getting coffee each day and praying for the Spirit to guide him and others to have those crucial conversations.

    The gospel is relational and, in my opinion, is more likely to be considered when the hearer knows you actually care about them as a person.
     
    #4 Baptist Believer, Sep 18, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  5. preachinjesus

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    I'm a SWBTS grad. I am sickened by this and other things going on at SWBTS.

    Of course is the Dr. Patterson in all his glory. Gruff, brash, and in your face. I would have gotten up and walked out of the chapel. Sadly I know there were guys sitting in the seats saying, "I want to do that for an illustration!"

    SWBTS has lost its place as a great seminary. It is a good place, but no longer great. I am saddened by the display in chapel. This is icing on the cake for Dr. Patterson, but it is indicative of the churlish leadership he has demonstrated since getting there.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    Of course you did.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
  8. preachinjesus

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    Wow, just...um, wow.

    Are we no better than Mormon's now? Requiring our first year seminarians to go door-to-door...wow.
     
  9. Baptist Believer

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    Of course I did what?

    I don't understand your comment.
     
  10. Havensdad

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    What in the world!? I am BIG on evangelism, and I applaud Patterson on his enthusiasm, but these kind of shenanigans are at the core of what is wrong with the Church today.
     
  11. Revmitchell

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    Really? Why don't you break that down, just how is that?
     
  12. Baptist Believer

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    Maybe I've figured out what you are referring to... Perhaps this?

    I expected much better from a man who travels the country encouraging fathers to buy their sons firearms to teach them responsibility and manly discipline. Firing off the largest rounds of military small-arms ammunition in a relatively small space in front of a crowd that’s not expecting it nor has appropriate safety equipment, in a city where a number of Baptists were brutally shot and murdered in a church 10 years ago this month by a gunman is NOT responsible.

    Even if Paige Patterson were theologically and politically justified in everything he has ever done, that still doesn’t change the fact that he is firing .50-calibar rounds (an enormous round in case you didn’t know) from an automatic weapon, indoors, in front of an audience that I sincerely doubt has hearing protection and is probably not expecting automatic weapons fire in their presence that morning in chapel.

    To put it bluntly, if Southwestern Seminary were not a religious institution, privately held, Patterson would have been arrested for violating gun laws. (I’m not an attorney, but he might have violated Texas law regardless because I’m not sure if religious institutions are officially exempt from state statutes regarding causing alarm.)

    He could have created a video on private land and presented it at the beginning of chapel to make his point.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    No what this is is an over the top bickering about something that adds up to nothing because of an inbred hatred for those involved in the conservative resurgence. Personally I would not use this kind of illustration mainly for the reasons you mentioned. But ...really who cares? So what? You weren't there you do not have a horse in this race. This thread is nothing more than gossip.
     
    #13 Revmitchell, Sep 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2009
  14. PeterM

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    Oh brother... Yup, something can't be wrong or in this case stupid without it coming down to liberal or conservative.

    :tonofbricks:
     
  15. Baptist Believer

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    Now there's an idiotic statement.

    So I suppose Havensdad and Rhetorician have a hatred for "those involved in the conservative resurgence" too?

    So you think it's a good idea to fire off a gun in church as a sermon illustration and that the only people who would say that it is irresponsible are those who don't care for the theology of the shooter?

    I guess you've missed all of the times I've pointed out Paige and Dorothy Patterson's decency in a number of situations with people I know.

    I guess you missed it when I recounted what I had heard regarding what seemed to be his genuine interest and humility in working out things with Broadway Baptist Church in the recent dispute.

    I guess you missed it when I have defended the right to own and carry firearms in these discussion forums.

    I don't know if I've mentioned it here since I don't think the topic has ever come up, but I think Patterson does a good thing when he travels to various churches and talks about fathers and sons learning to shoot together, to build bonds and teach boys responsibility.

    So if you think it is a good idea, then when are you going to whip out a firearm in church and start shooting blanks in front of the congregation? If you do that in most Texas congregations, you'll probably get shot.
     
  16. Baptist Believer

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    Ah, you edited you post while I was responding. I'll deal with this last bit you added:

    So you think a Baptist Press report and the Southwestern Seminary Web sites are gossip?

    And I do have "a horse in this race." I am a Baptist (in a church associated with the SBC) who is an alumnus of SWBTS, who ministers in a Fort Worth Baptist church, who is also a gun rights advocate for responsible firearm use, training and storage.

    It makes Baptists look like lunatics.
     
  17. Revmitchell

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    You need to go back and reread my post
     
  18. Revmitchell

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    Maybe you should go lok up that meaning.

    First none of this means you have a horse in the race. Second it is not on you to declare that all Baptists should see this in that manner. But you are welcome to continue your gossip.
     
  19. Baptist Believer

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    You hadn't written it when I responded.

    But at least you admit (albeit in a roundabout way so you don't have to admit that my posts about this have been directly on the mark) that it was a bad idea.
     
    #19 Baptist Believer, Sep 19, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2009
  20. Rippon

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    Mr. Mitchell, you are dead-wrong on this issue. The subject-at-hand has to do with common-sense (or rather the lack of it)-- not conservatism or liberalism.
     

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