Pastor supporting passages:

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Benjamin, Feb 7, 2010.

  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin
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    I’m looking to study some passages that tell us to support, pray for, lift up, serve, or maybe be a friend to our pastors. Or even some that tell us what not to do against them. Any suggestions?
     
  2. Amy.G

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    Heb*13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
     
  3. MovieProducer

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    Who is he talking about in this passage? Elders? Pastors? Parents? Apostles? Governors?
     
  4. Trotter

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    The same ones mentioned in 13:7.
    "Heb 13:7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith."

    Barnes, on Heb 13:17-
    The reference here is to their religious teachers, and not to civil rulers. They were to show them proper respect, and to submit to their authority in the church, so far as it was administered in accordance with the precepts of the Saviour. The obligation to obedience does not, of course, extend to anything which is wrong in itself, or which would be a violation of conscience. The doctrine is, that subordination is necessary to the welfare of the church, and that there ought to be a disposition to yield all proper obedience to those who are set over us in the Lord
     
  5. Zenas

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    Here are four or five lessons in the same passage:
    1 Timothy 5:17-22.
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    can somebody expound on the meaning of double honor ?
    thanks
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    The greek word "time" can be used in the context of holding someone in the highest regard or esteem or it can be used in the context of money paid. In 1 Tim 5:17 it is most likely both but the following verse 18 makes it clear it is at least speaking of the money paid.

    1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
     
  8. Allan

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    I agree that it most likely is used to refer to it's double meaning. If they are to be considered worthy of double honor (high regard) are they not worthy to justly compensated.
     
  9. Joseph shall add

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    This is a interesting topic. Yet it must be studied from a greater prospective today. First I subjest we look at the known offices God has appointed in his church. Note it is not our church it is his church. We are members of the body of christ. God from the time of Christ assention established the church as being comprized of many different offices. The are listed as that of Apostle, Prophet, Preacher, Teacher, Decon, ect. Not in the original first day after Christ assention the original 12 apostles number was reduced to 1 because of Judius becoming a trader and hanging himself. The 11 then prayer and appointed another apostle. Also there is Sauls conversion via direct revelation of Christ via Christ alone. Thus the position of apostle is still very active even today. To declare other would indicate God had made a mistake. God does not make mistakes. Also there were known prophets in the first day church for 300 hundread of so years and there of Course are today. Like I said God does not make mistakes. But just as it has always been people persucate the apostles and the prophets to justify wickedness. So you question is about whom do we pray for. Do we pray for the preacher. Or exactly whom do we pray for. It really depends on if you are going to lisen to the bible and what it states is the evidence of a preacher or a wolf in sheeps clothings. According to the Bible in the last day ( which we indeed are in ) . There will across the whole church landscape arise a from or men who will enter into the pulpit that look like sheep but lack any power. They will act like men of God on the outside but inwardly will be dogs or wolves. They neither care about the people of God nor love. It is my thinking most churches today in America are of such.
    The simple state of matters is that Americans churchs are in disarray do to not adhearing to the word of the Lord over church operations. In the operationals system of Gods church he has established protective coverings over his flock. The Lord is the first covering, the Apostle is the second covering, the Prophet is the next covering, the Preacher is the next covering and then the decons. A apostle is not a called out one and he is not a sent one. He is a chossen one. God elects not us. And preacher is not chossen one mostly in these day. They are men who got a degree buy going to college to get a profession. Sadly that is not Gods way of building a person of faith, God used trails like jobs trial. God builds men and woman of God from the inside out. In the process he is building a stone in the likeness of Christ. As they say a chip of the old rock. For this reason most churches are decreasing instead of increasing in these times.
    When people try to look like the world and not operate in faith the evidence of that will be shown in the position of pastor. God has desplayed the apostles and prophets as foolishness unto the world. They are mocked and attacked by mostly christians and most of all by today pastors. Never having matured into the image of Christ nor seeking deeper and higher knowledge of God church. Todays pastors do not move in revelation. True men and woman of God move revelation. From Glory to Glory. The Bible is Gods revelation to the world. But the bible is dead unless the spirit of God shines a light on the scriptures to illuminate them. And God does that all the time if you will allow him. But God resist the proud. I have served the Lord for a long time. The longer I serve him the more I understand deeper revelations of the Word of God.
    The reports I receive from with in the church from verious places are alarming to say the least. They are mainly about abusive pastors, even one pastor in Alabama that is threating people and telling them if they fire him God will curse them. That is a wolf in sheeps clothing or just a nut. Sadly maybe both. So do we pray for that kind of pastor, I would say we need to pray that he will be removed.
    The real problem with pastors today is they serve for money. You can't really serve money in any way and be a pastor. When you pay a pastor 50,000 a year he does not have to live by faith. So how can he teach you about something he does not know. The proof is in the walk. The bible states that you can't serve God and money. So the issue is one of what is a pastor. My pastor receives $250 a week for expences. And that is a fair amount, it provides for gas and travel for the role of pastor. The position of a pastor is not job it is a calling. When you dress up a monkey to look like a pastor and teach him to say the right words but no one is getting feed. You are storing up destruction for all the sheep.
    Many pastors tell you there are gifts today for the body of Christ. But then they also tell you God has done away with half the offices and half the gifts. That is a sign of a wolf, God is not half right and half wrong and he does not undo the church by providing half of what is needed. That would be foolishness. Many suffer in he body of Christ because of that.
    So do you pray for a pastor, yes indeed you pray for them. The question is what do you pray for them. I propose that you pray that God will remove the wolfs from your mist and bless the truly called servents that he has chossen for you. God uses the foolish and not the pride filled people of the earth.
    If your world is falling apart you need a word from a apostle and a prophet most often. A pastor is to be teaching and inspiring people. Apostles give direction to a church. Prophets bring church into correction and keeps them in line.
    A person that is being attacked on all sides needs a word from God and most oftern he can only get that via a apostle or prophet. Because his spirit is in pain and termoil.
    I have seen more then one pastor attach people who were hurting and needed love and not that of a worldly pastor. I am a servent of the Lords. Servents are lovers of the breathern and all people. We abide in love and not worldly love. So pray that God will mature your pastors into agents of Love and set back and enjoy the show.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    uh yea...:rolleyes:
     
  11. Trotter

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    Hoo-boy. I've heard that song and dance before... way too many times. If a man goes off to college or seminary just to get a job, then yes your thoughts would be correct. And that does happen sometimes. But that is the exception, not the rule.

    The vast majority who go to bible colleges and seminaries do so to continue to follow through on the calling God has already put on their lives. Take my pastor for instance... he already knew he was called into ministry before he finished high school. He went on to a great bible college (Tennessee Temple), and then went on to Southern Seminary. Does that make him a practitioner rather than a pastor? Absolutely not! It helped prepare him to be a much better prepared individual for the ministry God has placed him in.

    So... you are advocating continuing revelation? And yet claim to be Baptist? How so?

    Apostles are those who walked with Jesus. Paul was the only exception to this rule, but even he was instructed directly by the Lord. And yet you are advocating modern day apostles.

    Prophets of the Old Testament foretold things to come. The same happened in the New Testament. Are you saying that people should be doing this now? The modern understand of the use of prophecy is no longer "foretelling" but "forth-telling". Many preachers have this gift of "forth-telling", but not all.

    "You keep 'em humble, Lord, and we'll keep 'em poor." Yeah, I've heard that one, too.

    As has been said above, the pastor is worthy of our support. That doesn't mean he should be paid well above the level of the people of the congregation, but it should be enough that he doesn't have to concern himself over making ends meet. I have been in churches where the salary for the pastor was way too high and have seen the problems it causes... but I have also seen pastors who had to be bi-vocational and their wives still had to work at least part-time to be able to put food on the table (no extra expenses like fancy cars or boats or whatever... just making ends meet).

    There is nothing sanctimonious about impoverishing the pastor. I would leave any church that took the view you are espousing as it is dishonorable and against God's word. So would anyone worth his salt for the Lord.
     
  12. drfuss

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    Notice that it says obey them; no where in the New Testament does it say obey him. The N. T. church had a plurality of elders, not a senior pastor as most churches do today. Obey them means obey the group of elders who ran the church.

    The N.T. church had a different organizational structure than most churches do today. We should not make a one to one correlation between the N. T. church and most churches today that have a senior pastor, since the organizations are dirrerent.

    This is not to say we do not have an obligation to show respect for and follow our current leadership as long as they are providing good leadership.
     
  13. Joseph shall add

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    In the bible you do not see a prophet nor a apostle taking money from the people they even tell that they did not and a servent of a prophet was made leperdus for going after money. The priest of the temple took money back in the levetial order of the Jewish temple. How did Jesus deal with the priest in the temple. The bible tell us you can't serve money and God. But your telling me that you can serve money and God. The bible tells use that there are apostles and prophets, you are saying there are not. Of course a calling is a calling and the Lord want his people blessed.
    But you can't bless a people by putting a person in the pulpit that does not live by faith. And a preacher with no money has to live close to God and by faith. One with to much money is on a long leash and will not grow in faith and will never mature into a useful servant. And he will not move in revelation.
    True servents of God move in a continious revelation from greater to greater understandings as the enteract with God. They move up levels of Glory, from Glory to Glory. Always seeing a new facet of God and a greater understanding of his mercy and grace. Always moving closer to him and allow him to remove more of what is in them that he does not like. They in affect bath in his presents. They have intimency with God. They know him in other words and are known to him.
     
  14. padredurand

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    That reminds me of a song....
    My baloney has a first name
    It's OSCAR
    My Baloney has a second name
    It's MEYER
     
  15. annsni

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    I think this should apply to every believer. If every believer gave away 90% of their income to the Lord, they would be just about fully relying on Him and will grow in the faith and will mature into a useful servant. Of course anyone who doesn't do this isn't really a Christian because God wants us to fully rely on Him and if we don't, we don't obey and God isn't wrong.

    Oh wait! There's that sticky verse in there about paying pastors:

    1 Corinthians 9:7-12 "Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?
    Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? For it is written in the Law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain." Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more?
    "

    and

    1 Timothy 5:17-18 "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
     

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