Patriotic Worship

The Confederate flag is a symbol of racism not culture. That is such a load of c**p! It was used by a group of people that wanted to continue to see the spread of slavery thinking that they had God on their side. I don't care about the history of St. Andrew, whatever symbolic meaning that it may have had it was ruined in 1860! Any Christian that would defend the use of a racist symbol is creating barriers to the spread of the Gospel.

 

Our church does both pledges, and several patriotic songs, and recognized the people in our church who have been in or are in the military. I think the church is no place for it, I did not sing the songs in church becasue I feel that it is worship. Isn't that what I go to church for?
My opinion anyway.

 

Cha Ching!! You got it Dr. Bob!! I knew you would!

 

"X" is used for Christ (in Christmas) because of the Greek letter Chi which looks like the English letter X. This letter is the first letter in the name Christ (christos). In some Greek manuscripts the writer/copyist would use "shorthand" by writing Chi with a line over it to represent the name Christ. They would also use the Theta (the "th" sound) with a line over it to represent the name God (theos).

 

This is a little Confederate flag history for Granny Gumbo and go2church.

Granny, the First National Flag for the Confederate States was the "Stars and Bars" and was commissioned March 4, 1861. This flag consisted of a red field with a white strip in the middle out from the union, which was blue with seven 5 point stars in a circle. Other stars were added as more states seceded. Military units began receiving these flags soon after their commission and, although they were similar to the Federal National flag of the time, they were well received by most Confederate units. There is a myth that the Stars and Bars only saw short duty and was replaced after Manassas by the "Battle Flag" but there is no truth in this myth. Many unit flags were emblazoned with patriotic designs, unit names or pictures to personalize them. Actually the troops loved the "Stars and Bars" and many units continued to carry the flag throughout the war. They were made well into 1863 by a firm in Charleston, South Carolina. Of all the Confederate flags created, the "Stars and Bars" is the only one that saw service from the beginning of the war until the end. No other Confederate flag can come close to making that claim. This is the REAL flag of the Confederacy.

The Battle Flag or "Stainless Banner", was created in September 1861 in Virginia and distributed to Confederate Army of the Potomac on Nov. 28, 1861. This was the Second National Confederate States flag.
The first variation was about 48" square silk and had a rose or pink field with a blue St. Andrews cross with 12 gold stars in the blue. It also had gold fringe on 3 edges. The second variation had 12 white stars and a yellow border. The third variation of this flag had a red field, blue cross and 12 gold stars and a white 2" border. In 1862 more of these flags needed to be distributed to the Army of Northern Virginia but the supplies of silk in Richmond had been exhausted, so the flags were made of a wool-cottom blend. These flags were 42" square. Variations of this flag were made until 1964. The CS Navy adopted the design on May 26, 1863 for their "jack", which was rectangular.

go2church, The Battle Flag, as we know it today, was made for the Army of Tennessee in late 1863.
General Joseph Johnston wanted a flag of the same design he had helped create in Virginia in 1861. Gen. Johnston ordered that the flag size was to be 3' by 4' with a white field, a blue St. Andrew's Cross edged in white, with thirteen 5 pointed stars 3 1/2" to 4" across and set every 8" on the 6" wide cross. There was no border on the flag. The flags were first issured on 31 Dec. 1863 and issued throughout 1864 since it took some time for enough flags to be made.
These rectangular flags made by the Atlanta Clothing Depot were called the "Southern Cross".

go2church, if you claim that the Battle flag is a symbol of hatred, then you must also claim that the flags of each state that seceded are symbols of hatred. The "lone star" flag was hoisted as symbols of support for secession. Most people didn't even remember what the Texas state flag looked like since the population has grown so much that most had never seen one. The "lone star" flag was carried into battle at Gettysburg and Shiloh by some Texas units although most units adopted the First National Flag, the "Stars and Bars" as soon as possible rather than the now famous state colors; It being the only state flag that remains the same today as it was when used on the battlefields at Shiloh and Gettysburg.

May I remind you that most of the soldiers fighting for the Confederate Army had never owned slaves, themselves being too poor. I also believe that most men will not fight for a system that does not concern them in any way. Most were like my ancestors who were sharecroppers or tenant farmers and barely had the necessities of life. These poor men felt that the South was being invaded. They knew that their homes and lives would be destroyed and they fought to protect what small piece of land they had. They certainly weren't fighting to keep slavery alive for rich plantation owners. Slavery was pertpetuated by Northern slave runners who sailed to Africa, stole Africans and brought them back to ports all along the Eastern seaboard to be sold, many of these in the North. Even after slavery was abolished in the South, some Northern states still allowed it. Talk about hypocrites. The North has always looked down their noses at the South for somthing they participated in themselves.
I am reminded of turkeys who will drown in a rain storm because they keep their noses so high in the air.

 

When people see the Texas flag do they immediately think of the civil war and slavery? No. When they see the Confederate Flag what do they think of...civil war and slavery. It represents a time in the history of our country that is embarassing and it should never be forgotten how wrong we were as a county. It is not something that we should run up the flag pole and call culture or heritage, that is a load of c**p.

Question: In the Supreme Court decisions which states oppossed the spread of slavery and which states supported the continued use of slavery? Yeah, the whole it was all the North's fault is so full of holes it is funny that you would bring it up. There was plenty of "blame" to go around.

The turkey comment is a reflection of the barriers that I spoke of previously. Rather then take down the stupid racist symbolizing flag you would spend time defending the "great" history of cloth. Times change people grow, if flipping someone the bird actually started out as a compliment in the Middle Ages, would you still go around flipping everyone off and then call them snobs when they didn't get that it was a compliment? Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

go2church, I was not defending the Battle flag, merely pointing out that you were wrong in saying it went into use in 1860. I also wanted to point out that it was not the first official flag of the Confederacy. It also was not used as a racist symbol until after the war when the KKK was formed.

As to slavery and blame; yes there was enough to go around, except we never hear about how the North was involved in this shameful time in history. It's always the Southerners, most of whom were not rich plantation owners and had nothing to do with slavery.

Now, if you are talking about racism, I can assure you that there are just as many racist incidents in other parts of the country as there are in the South. Just the fact that everybody puts the South down all the time is racist in it'self. We who live in this age are not responsible for what happened in the 1800s and I'm tired of people trying to make me feel guilty for something that even my ancestors had no part in.
Just ask my best friend if he thinks I'm a racist and he will tell you very quickly that I'm not. He is a Black and an American, not an African American. I picked cotton along side blacks when I was growing up and never had any problems with anyone. I have always treated people of all races with as much respect as any white person, maybe more at times.

The Confederate Battle flag is no more racist than a Malcolm X tee shirt. We all know what a racist he was but nobody ever tells African Americans they can't wear a shirt with his face on it. I personally find it just as offensive as any racist symbol ever made.

By the way, I'm still waiting for women to really have equal rights like White and Black men enjoy.
When my ex was threatening every day to knock me into next week, I didn't even have the right to call the police because back then a man could treat his wife any way he wanted as long as he didn't kill her. How's that for equal rights.

I'll just threw that last one in for free.

 

Oh, you were talking about the date?!? Well then, I stand corrected.

Concerning the racist issue, I stand pat and add to it all racist symbols, not just a flag.

Concerning women, I think it is on the increase that men are able to call about abuse from women. My local sheriff would arrest man or women if they abusedor threatened someone.

 

Yes, we do have some fairly good Domestic Violence laws in place now that protect to some extent. Restraining orders are just so much wasted time and do nothing.

Back in the 60's and 70's there were no domestic violence laws in place to protect us and no shelters that we could go to. I'm sure glad people finally woke up to this terrible problem.

Yes, there are some women who abuse men, but I never struck my ex at any time in our 22 year marriage. Hey, I weighed 107 and he weighed 250. What in the world could I do against someone more than twice as large as me. I do not have a violent bone in my body and I had to stay alive to protect and raise my son the best I could.

I doubt that there are many men who would let a women beat on them without responding by beating the daylights out of her. I do watch Cops and it seems thats what usually happens. One strikes the other and the brawl is on then everybody goes to jail. I have only seen the inside of a criminal justice complex once when my ex (and he was my ex by then) went to jail for driving drunk and I had to take his insulin to him.

As to the flag, you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I don't believe it belongs in church, but everybody who has one is not a racist. To us who study the Civil War it is simply a part of our heritage. It did not fly over slavery. That was the Federal flag. It was simply a battle flag like so many others in all wars. If the KKK had not used it as their symbol, it would have passed into history long ago. By the way, most of the men in the KKK claimed to be good Christian men. General Nathan Bedford Forest was Grand Wizard in the Nashville group in 1867 but withdrew and disbanded his group in 1869 because he did not agree with what the group of doing. Personally, I've always thought of them as less than men and a bunch of cowards.

HAVE A BLESSED DAY.

 

A dear cyber-grandaughter of mine sent this to me & I didn't know where else to put it, in case someone hasn't seen it.

Signers of the Declaration of Independence~
What Happened to Them? As we prepare to celebrate the 4th of July, it's worth pausing for a moment to ask: Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honour. What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well-educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year, he lived in forests and caves only to return home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later, he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall and straight, unwavering, they pledged: For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honour.

They gave you and me a free and independent America. Some of us take these liberties too much for granted. We shouldn't. If you and I don't care about them and take care of them, they will vanish. So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July Holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid. Remember: Freedom is never free!

 

Those debunking articles do show that many of the details in that article are wrong. However, one premise found in both articles is wrong. That is: the fact that the same harm may have come to the signers had they not signed does not denigrate the significance of signing the Declaration.

From the Urban Legends page:

The author of this article (as well as the other) has missed a crucial point: if the signers had not signed the document, there would have been no war to fight. While the losses that came to these men may not have been the direct result of their identity, it was the direct result of the collective signing of the Declaration of Independance. The war would not have been fought had the Declaration not been signed. Thus, the signers were themselves consiously culpable for both their own losses and the losses of their countrymen. We ought to honor these men because they realized that liberty was worth its price.

 

Lot of rarely used words in there. Someone's been using their thesaurus!