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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Oct 30, 2004.
Interesting conversation I thought. Any thoughts?
I think these 2 paragraphs are the most interesting to me. Thoughts anyone?
Patterson's assessment with SBC churches is right on. The rolls are filled with non-believing non-attenders who think they are going to heaven.
The pews are filled with non-practicing, disobedient folks who think they are going to heaven.
Who does he mean 'we'? How would that be possible?
That is their belief I think and not only theirs but the Arminians as well is it not? In fact all religions are practiced with free will and effort but God is different.
Teaching people that they have their part to play in salvation by telling them they can reach out and take life is death. We should not be surprised at many false Christians in the Church. Look at the type. Israel was not only full of disbelief but crucified the Lord.
Free will is the Golden Calf and many Churches are teaching salvation by repentance. That is death. That I would say is the difference between Judas and Peter. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 2 Cor 7:10. Regeneration preceeds repentance unless it is the same thing. Get repentance wrong and you stay dead.
I have never heard an Arminian claim that they save them selves, Or boast that they did.
First of all if God is Love then He is definitly not what Calvinism says that He is.
Paul described what I believe God is like;
1Co 13:3 Even if I give away all that I have and surrender my body so that I may boast but have no love, I get nothing out of it.
1Co 13:4 Love is always patient, Love is always kind, Love is never envious Or vaunted up with pride. Nor is she conceited,
1Co 13:5 And never is she rude, Never does she think of self Or ever get annoyed. She never is resentful,
1Co 13:6 Is never glad with sin, But always glad to side with truth, Whene'er the truth should win.
1Co 13:7 She bears up under everything, Believes the best in all, There is no limit to her hope, And never will she fall.
True Love isn't what most men think. The most important thing is that real love cannot exsit, without the freedom of the will It takes to have it. Actually Love is an act of the will. God Him self knows this even if most men don't . He didn't have to Love us, but He does because it's His will to do so. If it's His will that we Love Him He has to allow people to have the will to love Him because without it there is none. To have a will a person is offered a choice an invitation for good;
Mat 11:28 "Come to me, all of you who are weary and loaded down with burdens, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Place my yoke on you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is pleasant, and my burden is light." Verses from the ISV.
May God Bless You;
Dr. Paige Patterson is not a five-point Calvinist. When he discussed regeneration not preceding or following faith/repentance he was talking about temporal order, not logical order. The quote below from a 1999 Baptist Press article might help clarify some things:
Not giving an invitation is Unscriptural?
Does he mean what Southern Baptists commonly do at the end of the service?
The Altar Call?
Seems like this is a relatively modern invention when compared to all of Christian History.
The words, that five point Calvinist won't be in any danger in the convention unless the stop following a particular practice in part of their local church services really bothers me, because it implies that if we stop doing that we are somehow a. not doing evangelism, and b. that the SBC has a right to declare what a local church does autonomously as part of its worship services a matter on which they can put a church or persons in danger over something like that.
Jesus gave one invitation: "Come follow Me."
Jesus gave one invitation: "Come follow Me." </font>[/QUOTE]Was that accompanied by one verse or two verses of "Just As I Am?"
These are just a few invitations;
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. come and follow me.
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
I didn't want you to think that come follow me came from some dusty old hymn book.
May God Give you light;
Here is an audio link by James White responding to a recent lecture that Dr. Paige Patterson gave on "Calvinism" at New Orleans Baptist Theol. Seminary for anyone interested:
May God bless you
Everyone knows that if you walk the aisle you are saved.
Brother, I never said that Jesus didn't give an invitation. What I'm inferring is that he didn't give an altar call like we do in today's Baptist Churches.
An alter call is an invitation to come to Christ. If we are to mimick Christ then shouldn't we invite men to Christ?
We don't have Christ until we confess Him before men. What better place to do that, than before the church.
May God Bless You;
You're straining to make a point which cannot be made.
No one is opposed to giving an invitation. All Gospel Preaching is an invitation in itself.
Some are opposed to giving Altar Calls which are a relative late development when it comes to Christian History. This is well within the bounds of reasonable thinking and true to sound Biblical teaching.
We can and should always question methodology to see if it measures up to the Biblical message.
Not all invitations are a call to follow Christ. Some are pure manipulation. I once heared a visiting preacher say to me that he could get almost everyone to come forward on an invitation.
Inviting men to follow Christ is often very different than just an invitation given at the end of a sermon. The fact is most people come to Christ outside of a church service. Those who come forward is often the result of the work done during the week and not just a Sunday event.
However people must know what they must do to be saved. It is simply believe. It is not jump through a bunch of hoops. People must be informed as to what the cost of following Christ is before they make that decision.
I never jumped through hoops, but I would if it pleased Him.
I have a problem with simply believing and then go on through life. Devils and demons believe and tremble. I agree that Believing is a must, but I also believe that confession of Christ before men is something we have to do as well. This is because of our surrender of our will to His;
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
I can't help but believe that confession is also part of that process;
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If the Atonement is limited in any way, then it is limited to and dependant on our confession of our sins;
I do not believe that the Atonement is limited to just a few that is not supported by scripture but a more real Atonement is one that is conditional upon our repentance and confession.
Is this all there is to it? You might say I'm wrong. But if you really believe that Christ is the Son of God and that He died for your sins. You will want to do all these things anyway...
May God Bless You;
There are thoughtful Christians who believe that Baptism is our Public Profession of Faith.
I really thought about what you said here. It reminded me of a Church of Christ meeting I went to once just to see what they were like. It was a large Church with a large attendance, but they had no piano. I finger the key boards some as a hobby and I missed this very much that evening. There methodology was that there was no record of musical instruments in the first church ever mentioned and they considered it wrong to have such a thing in there church. I of course checked this out with scripture and I didn't find any mention of an instrument in Church in the NT. but then I didn't read of anyone breathing in the Church either. Music is an expression of the heart like no other. Music can and is I believe praising God and there wrong if they think God doesn't like it. King David wrote music to God because I believe David was after His heart. Some can make that joyful noise with there voice but my self well,,, lets just say I wouldn't want to try and make a living at it.
The only methodology I believe is correct is being on our knees before the Lord in fervent prayer. IMHO more than anything this is something they don't usually do at the main Sunday services and this above all else is the highest form of worship. They might do it on Wednesday night prayer meeting but on Sunday? I've heard some call this sort of thing all show. But I call it reverence before the Lord.
May God Bless You;