Paul - "Lest I myself should be REPROBATED."

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Mar 1, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Lest I be REPROBATED

    "Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete but only one receives the prize? Then so run that you may receive But everyone that contends trains himself. They do it to receive a perishable crown but we an imperishable. Therefore I so run, not uncertainly. I do not fight as one beating the air but I pommel my body and bring it into subjection lest after preaching to others I myself should be reprobated."

    Reprobated? Did we hear Paul right? Reprobated? Yes, this is the very same Greek word that is used at Romans 1:28, 2 Corinthians 13:5, 2 Corinthians 13:6, 2 Timothy 3:8, Titus 1:16 and Hebrews 6:8 which are all the other occurrences of this word in the New Testament. In these passages the word is commonly translated as "reprobate" in some major translations and Calvinists love to use this word for the "non-elect." The word means "to reject" or "to be rejected," "unapproved" or "unfit."

    Here Paul is telling us that he brings himself into subservient subjection lest he be reprobated from the prize. What is the prize exactly? This word is used in one other place in the New Testament

    "That I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming like him in death, so that somehow I might obtain the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or already been made perfect, but I press on to make it my own because Christ Jesus has made me his own. I press on toward the mark of the prize of the calling above of God in Christ Jesus.... our citizenship is in heaven from where we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ who will change our humble body and transform it to be like his glorious body by the power which enables him to subject all things to himself." (Philippians 3:10-21)

    Here we see Paul telling us that his goal is the resurrection of the dead. This is the prize to which we are called above, the glorification of the body. This is the incorruptible crown for which we strive. The words "corruptible" and "incorruptible" are the language Paul uses to refer to the resurrection of the body. Peter also uses this terminology to refer to our salvation reserved in heaven for us (1 Peter 1:4-5).

    And even further Paul goes on in the verses (10:1-12) which follow to warn Christians that they will be condemned if they follow the same example of the Israelites in the wilderness. Here, Paul tells the Corinthians that he brings his body under subjection to God so that he is not disqualified for the eternal prize. And then he follows this up by instruction the Corinthian Christians not to fall short of salvation on the last day by becoming unfaithful to God.

    Paul is telling us that he knows there is a prospect of not being saved at the end of the age. And this is precisely why he gives us this exhortation in this passage. Paul feared reprobation if he did not remain true to Christ. So should we.

    This verse makes absolutely no sense if Paul could not be found reprobate on the Day. As a Calvinist, Paul would be saying, "My salvation is sure and there is no way I can be found reprobate." But Paul doesn't. And he is not playing self-deception games with himself either.
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    The silence is deafening. :cool:
     
  3. russell55

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    Because the argument is without merit. It seemed to need no response.

    If every single commitee done translation doesn't translate it as "reprobated", then one can be sure there's a reason. There is. In every one of those references where it is claimed that the word is the same, except for the Hebrews one, it isn't the same at all. Same root word, different form, and different forms have different meanings.

    In the Hebrews reference where the form is similar, then it's translated, depending on which version you look at: useless, worthless, rejected, disapproved, etc. There's just no way "reprobated" is a legitimate translation of that word in that verse.
     
  4. Doubting Thomas

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    Well, according to a Greek lexicon and Greek-English interlinear I checked it's the same word, "adokimos", in three slightly different forms in all the verses sighted. What's interesting is the Strong's definition given for each was the same:

    New Testament Greek Definition:
    96 adokimos {ad-ok'-ee-mos}
    from 1 (as a negative particle) and 1384; TDNT - 2:255,181; adj
    AV - reprobate 6, castaway 1, rejected 1; 8
    1) not standing the test, not approved
    1a) properly used of metals and coins
    2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
    2a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

    So although the forms are slightly different, this is the Strong's definition and number that was listed with the word in each verse of the Greek Interlinear I checked out.

    In the NKJV, it's translated "disqualified" in 1 Corinthians 9:27; 2 Cor 13:5,6; and Titus 1:16. In Romans 1:28, it's "debased"; in 2 Timothy 3:8 it's "disapproved"; and in Hebrews 6:8 it's "rejected". It's basically the same thing.
     
  5. Ben Elohim

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    Because the argument is without merit. It seemed to need no response.

    If every single commitee done translation doesn't translate it as "reprobated", then one can be sure there's a reason. There is. In every one of those references where it is claimed that the word is the same, except for the Hebrews one, it isn't the same at all. Same root word, different form, and different forms have different meanings.

    In the Hebrews reference where the form is similar, then it's translated, depending on which version you look at: useless, worthless, rejected, disapproved, etc. There's just no way "reprobated" is a legitimate translation of that word in that verse.
    </font>[/QUOTE]The argument is always the same coming from Calvinists. When the word does not fit the desires of Calvinism you must acquit its definition.... and redefine the term to TULIP's liking. Why does one see this word redefining game so often in Calvinism?

    Yes it is the word adokimos.

    The word is the antonym of dokimos (exact opposite) which means "acceptable, approved." The English equivlanet of adokimos is the word "to reject", our way of saying something is not approved and is "unacceptable." A reprobate is a reject.
     
  6. russell55

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    That's because Strong's includes all forms of the word under one number. That's the way it works. That's one of the weaknesses of only using Strong's. It's helpful, but you need to know it's limitations, and exactly what it is that it tells you.

    Check your Greek Text again, because they are not the same. Except in Hebrews 6.

    And? None of them are "be reprobated".

    And, BTW, I'm not sure what the point of the opening post is anyway. Calvinists believe that the reprobate are reprobate because they consistently choose to sin and when (and if) they hear the gospel, they reject it. Reprobation is an action people do to themselves. We would all be reprobate save for the intervening action of God.

    If Paul had consistently been disobedient, he would have proved himself to be reprobate. But he didn't, and he didn't because the Holy Spirit worked obedience within him, and part of the way that obedience was worked was by impressing upon him the need remain true to Christ.

    What Ben gives might be an argument against the non-Calvinist doctrine of OSAS, but it is not an argument against the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverence of the Saints.
    And that's probably also why there's no response to this post. There's no point. Calvinists also believe that if Paul had not remained true to Christ in the end, he would have proved himself to be one of the reprobate. That he remained true to the end proves that God preserved him to the end.
     
  7. Ben Elohim

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    russell: What Ben gives might be an argument against the non-Calvinist doctrine of OSAS, but it is not an argument against the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverence of the Saints.
    And that's probably also why there's no response to this post. There's no point. Calvinists also believe that if Paul had not remained true to Christ in the end, he would have proved himself to be one of the reprobate. That he remained true to the end proves that God preserved him to the end.

    BE: Here's your problem. Paul was saying he did these things so that he would not be found reprobate. If he had Calvinist beliefs, he would not even entertain the possibility that he could be found reprobate. And in so doing, you turn him into a madman.
     
  8. russell55

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    Huh???? Assurance only comes from obedience. That's why it says to EXAMINE OURSELVES. If we are always being disobedient, we have no reason to consider ourselves saved.
     
  9. johnp.

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    1CO 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.


    johnp.
     
  10. johnp.

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  11. Kiffen

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    I think Ben may be confusing the Calvinist view of Perseverance or Preservation of the Saints with that of the Modern day OSAS which is a common mistake of Arminians.
     
  12. whatever

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    I think Ben is confused about a lot of things.
     
  13. av1611jim

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    I think you are ALL confused!
    Paul IS concerned with a very real possibility here. And he DOES continue in obedience to obtain the "prize". He IS concerned about being "castaway". (KJV)
    But exactly WHAT is in view here?
    It is NOT his salvation, this much is obvious. Else why would he say "if it be of works then it is no more grace"?
    Obviously something has Paul "fearful".
    I noticed you did NOT give a reference. That is very telling. You obviously have an axe to grind.
    Well here is the solution;
    1Co 9:24
    ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    25
    And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    26
    I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    27
    But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
    AND:
    2Co 5:10
    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    11
    Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
    AND:
    2Ti 4:6
    For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
    7
    I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
    8
    Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
    AND:
    Re 20:4
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5
    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6
    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    In a nut shell. Paul feared being found unworthy of the coming Millenial Kingdom. It is that simple. OSAS is not violated, and the many warnings of apostacy are not violated.

    God saves by faith alone in Christ alone. But it is Christ who rewards His faithful few, who perservere, with reigning with Him in the coming Kingdom for a thousand years.

    One does NOT get a crown without winning the race. And one does NOT reign with HIM without a crown.

    Of course ya'll may pooh-pooh this doctrine, but that don't matter. It is the truth.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  14. Ben Elohim

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    Are you sure that he is not referring to salvation?

    And so you really have any idea whatsoever what this crown is exactly or do you just make it up?
     

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