Paul Marshall Johnson was murdered today

It is, similar to Christianity, how one interprets your scripture, that determines what your religion is all about. If there was ever any doubt about this, one would have to look no further than the Southern Baptist Convention to figure this out and how we have spent the past 30 or so years fighting with moderates and liberals over interpretation of scripture. Or, you could even click on the Translations forum and see much of the same there. Or, go to the Calvinism vs. Arminianism Forum. I think much the same could be said about any religion. We all have liberal, moderate, conservative, fundamentalist, and extremist wackos within our respective religions and to deny that is to really lose touch with reality. For a prime example of an extremist wacko Baptist, please see Westboro Baptist Church.

world domination, join-us-or-be-regarded-infidel-and-treated-as-such, there is no god but allah ( ),etc., etc. Theirs is a religion bred and spread with violence.[/QUOTE]

Let me change a few words and see if they sound familiar to you:

1. World Evangelism
2. Those who are not Christians are lost and should be separated from.
3. Shema Yisroel Adoni Elohenu Adoni Achad
4. Take a look sometime at the Holy Wars which were fought in the Bible. Then take a look at Christian history: The Crusades, Tyndale being burned at the stake for offering an English translation of the Bible, The Shoah, Slavery.

Just like a true Christian will show his true colors when push comes to shove. We may see him going around with the wrong crowd now, doing the wrong things now, saying the wrong things now, but, when things come to a head, his true nature within him, his upbringing, his Christian training, those things he learned as a child of God, will always come out and up. [/QUOTE]

I think the Muslims might make the same argument about true Muslims. My point is not to make Islam equal with Christianity, because it is not. It is merely to state that many of the same arguments you make against Islam (as I have in the past) could legitimately be applied to Christianity given much of our history of violence which was stated earlier. We are not fighting a religion here. We are fighting a political ideology that has been inserted into a religion. The sooner we realize this, I think, the sooner we will defeat the enemy. Although, Christianity is superior to Islam, we as humans, are not. We are all still totally depraved. We are all sinners in need of the grace of God. We are all capable of committing horrendous atrocities in the name of Christianity, Islam, Shintoism, etc...(Insert religion here). Just because we are Christians does not make us squeeky clean. We are forgiven and when we stand before God, thankfully, he will only see the atoning blood of Jesus and not our sin. This is the major difference between me and every Muhammad in the world. It is a spiritual condition. But, if we are to say that Islam is what causes violence, then how are we to explain the actions of Muslims in Iraq who helped us free American Hostages? If we are to say that Islam is the sole cause of anti-semitism, how are we to explain American Muslims who support Israel? How are we to explain Prince Bandar who condemned Arafat for rejecting the peace plan at Camp David? Just as blaming Israel for all the evils in the world unfairly is anti-semitic, so is condemning all Muslims as terrorists.

Joseph Botwinick

 

The Crusades were started by the Muslims. Muslims have twisted it around like the Crusaders started war with them. The Crusaders were defending a muslim invasion of their lands. I believe it was the second jihad. We are now in the third muslim jihad.
Convenient, too, how they regard the US as imperialists, when in fact, it is they who are the imperialists. Imperialism has never been one of America's foreign policies.

Convenient, too, how OBL and the jihad ilk say we are stealing their oil, plundering their lands, and that is their so-called justification for this jihad. Funny thing, I paid over $2.00 a gallon for my gas last time I filled the tank. What evil goofballs.

BTW, I haven't condemned all muslims as terrorists. I stated they are either terrorists or potential terrorists & I think I explained my reasoning for that somewhere.

I haven't stated that anywhere. The sole cause of anti-semitism is satan, and islam is the religion of allah, or satan. But satan is also found in the religion or political ideology of the Nazis. And the communists. And those who kill innocent life (as the unborn). Just as satan was in the gods of the Canaanites who performed human sacrifices, and those who sacrificed their children to Moleck in the Bible, satan is also in the human sacrifice business today, in the form of the homicide bombers, and parents training their babies to be homicide bombers in Palestine, and the abortionist and right to choose (murder). Satan is the taker of life and he appears in many forms, always as a poor paymaster.

Prince Bandar may have condemned Arafat for rejecting the peace plan. Big deal. Don't you know the Saudi's speak from both sides of their mouths? One side in English is what the West wants to hear. The other side is in Arabic and endorsing the jihad. Otherwise, the Saudi's would close down the madrassas that churn out generations of jihadists. Besides, according to the quran, it is acceptable and not considered a sin to lie to a kaffir (non-muslim).

 

The Crusades were started by the Muslims. Muslims have twisted it around like the Crusaders started war with them. The Crusaders were defending a muslim invasion of their lands. I believe it was the second jihad. We are now in the third muslim jihad.</font>[/QUOTE]I might agree with that statement had the Crusades been merely confined to the Muslims, but such was not the case:

Encarta's Introduction to the Crusades

And then there is this bit of information:

Encarta's First Crusade


Convenient, too, how they regard the US as imperialists, when in fact, it is they who are the imperialists. Imperialism has never been one of America's foreign policies.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this statement. But, Imperialism is more of a political ideology than it is a religion.

Convenient, too, how OBL and the jihad ilk say we are stealing their oil, plundering their lands, and that is their so-called justification for this jihad. Funny thing, I paid over $2.00 a gallon for my gas last time I filled the tank. What evil goofballs.[/QUOTE]

More political propaganda on the terrorists part to try and turn the liberated against the liberators. Kind of like the class warfare that is used by the liberals in this country so often.

BTW, I haven't condemned all muslims as terrorists. I stated they are either terrorists or potential terrorists & I think I explained my reasoning for that somewhere.[/QUOTE]

I dispute that all Muslims are even potential terrorists. That is about as ridicilous as saying that all Christians are potential klan members or domestic terrorists (remember Oklahoma City). This is a tactic that would normally be employed by those in the liberal media who attempt to demonize and ridicule Christianity.

I haven't stated that anywhere. The sole cause of anti-semitism is satan, and islam is the religion of allah, or satan. But satan is also found in the religion or political ideology of the Nazis. And the communists. And those who kill innocent life (as the unborn). Just as satan was in the gods of the Canaanites who performed human sacrifices, and those who sacrificed their children to Moleck in the Bible, satan is also in the human sacrifice business today, in the form of the homicide bombers, and parents training their babies to be homicide bombers in Palestine, and the abortionist and right to choose (murder). Satan is the taker of life and he appears in many forms, always as a poor paymaster.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with you here. And the big picture point is that no matter what religion the violence is committed in the name of, be it Christianity (Nazis, Klan) or Islam (Islamic Jihad, Al Quaeda, PLO, and Al Aqsa Martyr Brigade), the actual source is the same....Satan. But, that does not make every Christian a potential Nazi and Klan member anymore than it makes every Muslim a terrorist.

Joseph Botwinick

 

LE,

Must be Tennessee for you, but our gas prices in Arkansas have gone down about 0.20 per gallon in the last several weeks. My last fill up was $1.78 per gallon. Part of that, BTW, is because our enemies, the Saudis, have worked hard to boost the oil production in the last month or so. I believe Prince Bandar was part of that as well.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Here is some more information about Crusader attacks against Jewish villages:

the Jews preferred to commit collective suicide rather than fall into the hands of the mobs.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Here are some more examples of how Jews were persecuted by Christians:

To escape death many Jews accepted baptism and conversion to Christianity.

 

Umm maybe they are but, no one is listening.</font>[/QUOTE] Sorry, I am not buying. If they were to speak load enough many people would listen.

Or maybe its why some southern politicians weren't interested in being interviewed about race during the civil rights movement.

They are following popular opinion rather than taking a stand for what is right.

IOW's, there is nothing to be gained by opposing the terrorists and everything to be lost.

All the more reason there should literally be 100's of thousands of moderate Muslims in their streets demanding an end to the violence.

 

All the more reason there should literally be 100's of thousands of moderate Muslims in their streets demanding an end to the violence. </font>[/QUOTE]That is easy for us to say, sitting in our comfortable American homes where we can gripe, complain and demand our rights without fear of being placed feet first in a meat grinder or gassed. But, it isn't quite so easy for those living under brutal tyrants. BTW, in case you are wondering, there are several Muslims and Muslim groups here in America who have advocated those kinds of things in Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries. For example, have you ever heard of Women for Iraq? Probably not. They don't get a lot of play because they don't follow the liberal media's view of Arab opinion of America and actually spoke out in favor of the war in Iraq.

Joseph Botwinick

 

But they claimed to be Christians just as the terrorists claim to be Muslims. This argument can be used both ways.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph, Are you saying we should give the supposed "vast majority" of Muslims a pass when they do nothing to stop the "small minority" of trouble makers?

 

Only if you know a NT scripture that says we should kill anyone who refuses to convert.

 

Joseph,

Thank you for providing a balanced and carefully reasoned viewpoint to this threat. It is much appreciated.

 

Define "do nothing". In my own community, there are Muslim-organized anti-Osama, anti-terrorism, and anti-extremist protests on a weekly basis, attended by thousands of college and professional aged Muslims. They never seem to make the news. The Orange County Islamic Center has openly denounced radical Islam and terrorism. When a local Jewish synangogue was vandalized (by a group of white college guys who were Baptist, btw), the nearby Muslim Mosque participated in fund drives for the synagogue.

Yet none of it is worthy enough to make the news, not even the local news. Benevolence doesn't sell papers. Meanwhile, the rest of us get to complain that these folks aren't doing anything.

 

Actually,

Many of the Muslims in Iraq have helped the coalition forces in the past (you'll recall the rescue to the American soldier who were held. Do you remember who led the troops to the hostages?), and also the Iraqi people are also starting to take over control of security and patroling and are even beginning to fight alonside with the American soldiers. How many Iraqis do you think have been murdered by the extremist because of their stand on the side of the American troops and for democracy? Are you trying to say that the Muslims in Iraq have not suffered any losses for their cause? That is really going into the realm of an alternate reality if you believe that. In about 9 days, we are going to turn soveriegnty over to the Iraqis and they are going to take ownership of many of the problems and start legally contributing a lot of solutions to the problem as an internationally recognized government. To say that the vast majority of Muslims are idly standing by and picking their collective noses while our boys die is offensive, irrational, and not based in any way in fact or reality.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Only if you know a NT scripture that says we should kill anyone who refuses to convert. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you trying to say that the Crusaders misunderstood their own religion when they slaughtered Muslims, Jews, and other Christians? Perhaps they read their own political ideology in their scripture? I wonder why only Christianity is given this benefit of the doubt.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I might agree with that statement had the Crusades been merely confined to the Muslims, but such was not the case:

Encarta's Introduction to the Crusades

And then there is this bit of information:

Encarta's First Crusade

Joseph, why did you leave this part out from your own source - ENCARTA:

It proves from your own source what I stated, the Crusades were started by the Muslims.

I didn't know persecution of the Jews was in this discussion, I thought it was confined to Muslims. That's the issue I was addressing.

 

I am curious to know why, if it was all about the Muslims, did they slaughter all of those Jews and Greek Orthodox Christians? Did some of the peasants misunderstand?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph, I didn't say it was all about the muslims. You brought up the crusades to try and emphasize your point. I retorted that the crusades were started by the muslims and your source proved I was correct. Perhaps you should have picked a different illustration to prove your point?

 

Perhaps it was started by the Muslims. That point is conceded. But, somehow, it ended up with the slaughter of Jews and Christians. I wonder why and how this happened. Did the Crusaders misunderstand the purpose? Or were they simply extremist from the Christian faith? Should all Christians be judged by their example?

Joseph Botwinick