Paul's letters

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by psalms109:31, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    I wish that the Bible would include the question that was asked Paul in which he replied back to them.

    I think that would clear up many of the confusion between believers.

    We know that Peter has warned us that people will destort Pauls teaching to thier own destruction.

    That is a scary thought to me.

    Have we destorted it by taking away God's love that He showed the world through Jesus or should we just explain away God's love for the world and just limited it by the words of Paul.

    If God loved the world then He would bring the world hope through Jesus.

    I have seen through Paul's teaching that there is nothing good in me, that is my flesh.

    Then he goes on to that my inner man delights in God's law, but the flesh wages war with him.

    Then he goes on to say who can save me from this body of death, praise be to Jesus.

    Through those words I do not see that we are totally depraved, but the inner man needs help and Jesus is that help.
     
  2. J.D.

    J.D.
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    To support your dualist position, I assume you conclude that man is born with two natures - one godly (what you call the inner man) and the other ungodly (what you call the body).

    If that is the case, then what is the purpose of the new birth? If we are born already with a godly nature, then what happens when we are born again?

    Only the re-born have the presence of God within them, and therefore, the competing natures. Only the born-again are promised deliverence from this body of sin and death. This is why you have to apply Romans 7 to the saved only and not to mankind in general.
     
  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Inner man

    The inner man has been corrupted by the flesh. We have been following the flesh from birth we don't know any better. We have a desire to do good but evil is right there with us waging war.

    We have a saviour from this body of death. Praise be to Jesus.

    We cannot change who we are. You can't, I can't we both are headed for destruction.

    The only hope we have is Jesus.

    His word is Spirit and life. When we who believe follow Him, we will see changes in this world.

    All this evil that is happening in this world is not God's will. He has given us over to our own evil desires.

    We are the hands and feet of God, if we do nothing God does nothing.

    There was a farmer who said God provide the seeds and water, I'll just throw the seeds out and let God take care of it.

    A few sproted here and there, but he ended up losing the farm.

    The other farmer took over it and he tilled the ground planted the seeds where they supposed to be , he irregated and took care of it.

    He yeilded a great crop.

    The man came back and said God blessed you in that crop. He said you should of seen when God alone was taking care of it.

    I wonder in Jesus parrible if the one who threw the seed out would of prepared the ground first, what kind of crop he would of came up with.

    Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [Or in ; also in verses 19 and 20] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.

    20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

    2 Corinthians 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us.

    I am not a duelist.

    Everyone is headed for condemnation, for not one of us is good enough, only Jesus is.

    Our only hope is Jesus, and this hope has been given to the world.

    God does love this world that He sent His Son, only if men would believe.
     
  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    new birth

    The new birth is joining of the Holy Spirit and the soul of man. The marriage

    The new heart. People believed before they received the new birth, you do not have to be born again to believe, but to enter heaven.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Was Paul addressing all mankind here ? Where did Paul ever teach that all men are born again, and possess two natures, the old man, and the new or inner man ?

    Only those who are born of the Spirit possess a new nature that duels with the old.
     
  6. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Struggle with sin

    When i was a child my inner man had a desire to do what my parents told me to do, but my flesh waged war against what my parents said was right. I wouldn't know it was wrong to touch a burning pan, on the stove, until my parents told me it was wrong. If i tested them i would pay the consequenses. We all struggle with sin don't we. Where does paul say he was not addressing mankind.

    Where have i said that all men are born again, all men do have a desire to do good, but flesh wages war against them. You do not need to be born again to have a desire to do good.

    In fact only believers will be born again. Being born again does not come before belief. Being born again comes after belief.

    John 7:39
    By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    Acts 19:1
    ...There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[Or in] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
     
    #6 psalms109:31, Jul 26, 2006
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  7. Rex77

    Rex77
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    Romans 7
    7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
    8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    It would help to post the scripture that you are refering to. But it sounded to me that you have pulled your idea from the folowing verse:

    Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


    This statement is unclear. You wish the bible includes a question that was asked Paul. Where did you get the question from if it isnt included in the bible? And what exaclty is the question?

    Again the passage you pull your idea from could be posted along side the staement for clarity. However, whenever Peter, Paul, or anyone warns of a distortion of Gods Word then it is refering to those with "another gospel" or the unregenerate.

    Are you suggesting that Paul failed to represent the Love of God in his Epistles? I would suggest that you go back and do a better study. Paul continually points us back to the cross.

    1Co 1:17
    For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
    1Co 1:18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    Ga 5:11And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
    Ga 6:12As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
    Ga 6:14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
    Eph 2:16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    Php 2:8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    Php 3:18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
    Col 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
    Col 2:14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
    Heb 12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
    You are right we are not totally depraved. Paul is saying what you are suggesting. The thing you need to understand is, that Paul is talking to and about regenerate christians. He is not talking about lost folks. For the bible says we are depraved without Christ.

    Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
    Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    It appears that you feel as if the church is too heavy on righteousness and too light on Gods' Love.

    I do think that many in the church are divided on which is more effective to win people to Christ, love or righteousness.

    It is my position that we cannot come to Christ without a clear recognition of our sinnful nature abd that only Christ can be the remedy for that sin.

    How can anyone look to the cross and fail to see the love of God? Only those who do not wish to see it or recognize it.

    It is a false notion and another gospel that you can be regenerated by the Holy Ghost by simply following Jesus. The truth is that you must without exception recognize that your a depraved sinner deserving of hell for eternity. You must be able to set aside your pride and be broken enough to come to the feet of Jesus in need of what he has without any reservation do to a lack of perceived love.

    Luke 7:36-50

    This woman burst into this Pharisees house and kneeled at his feet crying. Because she understood who she was in comparison to who God is. she understood that she was a miserable sinner in a miserable state without Christ.

    It is a prideful degenerate that says they will not come to Christ because he hasnt loved me enough. Do not be fooled by their rhetoric.

    People are not turning to Christ because they do not want to. Not because they are not loved.
    Sin. Hell, and Satan must be preached as well as the everything else. If you want to show Gods love, then point to the cross!





     
  9. psalms109:31

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    Regenerative power of God

    Romans 10:5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[Lev. 18:5] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[Deut. 30:12]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[Deut. 30:13]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[Deut. 30:14] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[Isaiah 28:16] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[Joel 2:32]

    14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7]

    We have Good news.

    It was limited, but when Jesus was lifted up, He opened the door for the world.

    John 12:32
    But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

    Jesus words are Spirit and Life. It is a regenetive power of God to give men a choice, not to incline our hearts to believe or not to believe, but a clear choice.

    To believe in His Son and be saved, or not to believe and be condemned.

    God has placed before us life and death, so chose life so we will live.

    Love is not love if it is forced on us.

    Paul was a man who all his desire was is to know Jesus and Him crucified.

    God through Jesus has given a hope for all men, and made us a messenger of it.

    Paul did not need to tell believing churches that they had to believe in the Son of God to be saved, they already knew this.

    They were predestined to be saved from the foundation of the world, because they believed in the Son. God has predestined that believers be saved, He did not predestined believers to believe.

    We are saved by grace, because we didn't pay our debt, Jesus did. The wages of sin is death. The only way man can pay thier own debt for thier salvation is death, but that isn't salvation at all

    Romans 11:19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


    23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

    Hebrews 3:
    Warning Against Unbelief
    7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
    "Today, if you hear his voice,
    8do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion,
    during the time of testing in the desert,
    9where your fathers tested and tried me
    and for forty years saw what I did.
    10That is why I was angry with that generation,
    and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
    and they have not known my ways.'
    11So I declared on oath in my anger,
    'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]

    12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
    "Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

    16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

    When it comes down to it, it is those who endure to the end who will be saved.

    Jesus came into His own sheep and they received Him not, So He did what He said He would do.

    Matthew 10:33
    But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

    2 Timothy 2:
    10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

    11Here is a trustworthy saying:
    If we died with him,
    we will also live with him;
    12if we endure,
    we will also reign with him.
    If we disown him,
    he will also disown us;

    We all are looking for another way in, like election. No one wants to enter through the front door.

    The front door is belief in Jesus. We enter election through Jesus.

    The young rich ruler was chosen by Jesus, drawn to Jesus, but walked away.

    Many men are not empowered because they have no faith in the hope that was given to the world through Jesus Christ.
     
  10. epistemaniac

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    hey there Psalm109.... you are responding to quite a bit..... but I wanted to respond to just one small statement which has giant ramifications for anyone's understanding of the Christian faith,,,, you said

    another view, which you may not have considered before... is that this is exactly backwards, that given man's natural sinful state (which you seem to agree with) is that no one believes until after they are born again.... sinful man cannot exercise saving faith until this ability is granted to them by the grace of God....

    anyway, not to overwhelm you or anything, I just wanted to make you aware that there was a different perspective available....

    blessings
     
    #10 epistemaniac, Jul 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2006
  11. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
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    For some reason God has alowed his letters ( Paul ) to come down to us as if we somehow interrupted a telephone call in 'mid flight' but missed the first bit :) God is above/before all/us and has a good reason for His actions.

    David
     
  12. J.D.

    J.D.
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    People want the bible to read like a novel in a narrative format. This is not God's will. We must STUDY to show ourselves approved. They that desire the truth (by God's will) will find it.
     
  13. psalms109:31

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    John 7:39
    By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    Acts 19:1
    ...There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[Or in] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

    They believed before they were born again. Jesus words which is Spirit and life do have power to reach us and give us the choice to believe in His Son and be saved or not and be condemned.

    God has set before us life and death so chose life so you may live
     

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