Penal Substitutionary Atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Oct 18, 2014.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Some have voiced objections to the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement which I think deserve to be answered. For example:

    OBJECTION #1:If Christ died “instead of us” why do we still die?

    ANSWER: Christ did not die "instead of us" but rather died to pay our sins instead of us dying to pay our sins. His death removes the sting of our physical death and eventually destroys death over our bodies.

    OBJECTION #2: If Christ's death substituted for the penalty for the sins of the world, then the whole world should be saved (as Universalists believe).

    ANSWER: Arminians answer this by stating it is conditionally applied, while Calvinist interpret "world" to mean all human beings without distinction of gender, race or class.

    OBJECTION #3: What judge would knowingly punish an innocent volunteer while releasing a criminal, and call it justice? There is no justice in that. Justice is in punishing the guilty rather than the innocent, as God declared to Moses in Exodus 34:6-7. Grace is in showing mercy to even the guilty. Did God merely need to see innocent blood shed to appease his anger at a guilty world? This makes God into a rather psychotic deity, a wrathful god whose anger could be appeased only by the sight of some special blood. It turns the mercy of God into a magical mystery.

    ANSWER: Christ willing took upon the position as a substititute in order to redeem His people from their sins. That is an act of love. Their sins were legally imputed to him (2 Cor. 5:21) and he was "MADE TO BE SIN" and therefore could justly suffer for sin as a willing legal substitute.

    OBJECTION #4: Another big problem with the substitutionary view: The theory sets up a mechanical process, by which God has received a supposedly just payment for the “debt” owed to him. By that theory, Christ has paid off our debt. We no longer need mercy or grace from God – he owes us life, because our lives have been “ransomed.” We need no longer ask for forgiveness because all sins have already been wiped out and paid for. Salvation then would not be a gift of God, but a contractual right owed to us because of the payment that has been made. If our sins are already paid for, why should we continue to ask for forgiveness? The result of such thinking is the Calvinistic, “Once Saved, Always Saved,” which has the effect of saying that the financial transaction for our souls has been completed, and even faith becomes only subsequent to our salvation. Remission of sins is an act of God’s grace, not a legal contract resulting from Christ’s payment.

    ANSWER: It is not a "mechanical" process but a "legal" process. Moreover, the entire salvation of the whole person is not instantaneous, but a past, present and future application. Therefore, the mercy and grace of God are necessary in the progressive application. We don't need to ask forgiveness in order to be resaved each time we sin, but we ask forgiveness in order to progress in our own EXPERIENCE of salvation. The failure to ask stunts our growth but does not elimate our salvation because it has been paid in full, as all our sins were future when Christ paid for them, and therefore if he paid for any he had to pay for all (Rom. 4:7-8).

    OBJECTION #5: The animals sacrificed under the law were not substitutes for the sins of Israel. They were symbols. Just as you call them, they were foreshadowings. They actually did not take away sin either, else salvation could have come through the law rather than through grace. So Paul said: "The blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin." There is no salvation in the law. Salvation is by grace. The true efficacy of sacrifice is in acceding to the mercy and grace of God.

    ANSWER: They were not literal substitutes for "the sins" of Israel but were symbolic of Christ as the substitute for Israel and their sins. Hence as symbols "shadow" (Heb. 10:1) they could never literally remove sins (Heb. 10:4) but the antitype which was the object of faith both then and now (Heb. 4:2) could and did remove sins (Acts 10:43). The law was never designed to save or grant life but designed to lead the offerers and keepers of the law to Christ for remission of sins by faith (Gal. 3:19-22).

    OBJECTION #6: Christ died as our representative. He showed the penalty that is rightfully due to all of us. He showed us the true horror of sin. He shows us the flesh, displayed in its mortality, the suffering due because of sin. His sacrifice covers our sins by God’s grace, because God counts faith as righteousness, and grants forgiveness to those who ask it.

    ANSWER: An "example" theory cannot save anyone as none can follow His example as it requires a sinless human to satisfy both the righteousness of the Law and a qualified sacrifice to atone for sin - thus a lamb without spot or blemish. God does not count "faith" as righteousness but only counts "faith" which has for its sole and only object the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ as righteousness (Rom. 4:22-25). Abraham believed IN the gospel (Gal. 3:6-8) rather than just believed or had faith. God justifies the "ungodly" not the "godly" as this theory demands.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Oct 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2014
  2. Yeshua1

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    I read that link you posted to what NT Wright believes happened at the Cross, and that view is NOT Pauline theology, nor any other right one!

    And also think that Ginney and some other non cals have taken views like Moral government and examples theories to water down what the Cross meant!
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Exactly!:thumbs::thumbs:
     
  4. preachinjesus

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    There are multiple views of the atonement that are suitable for believers. In these understandings different applications can be drawn. :)
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    I do not deny that is true, but when one does not fold to death of jesus as a substitionary one, there can be no assurance of any getting saved by that act of his...
     
  6. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Exactly!!!!
     
  7. quantumfaith

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-pLwRMv-wk#t=108

    Does not sound like a heretic to me. But of course I don't look for heretics around every tree not do I attempt to claim that anyone who does not completely line up with me is a heretic.
     
  8. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    Well first of all, please write complete sentences. Second, this is not true.
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    Oh, so God is the author of confusion and he simply provides a smorgasboard dinner table for your to pick and choose!

    What you are saying is absolutely false! The atonement is not multiplex options but is singular in truth. To even suggest a plethora of options is to accuse God to be the author of confusion.

    To deny the penal substitutionary atonement is to deny the essence of the gospel itself and to preach an entirely "another gospel." And yes, I will defend that statement with anyone on this forum, whether they be a Bible student, Phd. or Moderator.

    The Ransom theory/Christus Victor, and the Moral influence theory with all their mixtures are all false theories that deny the gospel of Jesus Christ. It does not take a genius to see clearly that it is the LAW of God that defines sin and its condemnation, and there is simply no other view that satisfies the justice of God against sin, and there is no other theory that satisfies the righteousness of God for entrance into heaven. True justification by faith does not "make void the law" but rather "establishes the law" and none of the other theories can do that or even attempt to do that (Rom. 3:31).


    Answer me these questions:

    1. What defines both sin and its judgement?

    2. What defines the standard of God's righteousness?

    3. What theory of the atonement explains justification in regard to both sin and righteousness so that the law is not made void but rather "establishes the Law"?

    4. What must Christ provide in His Person and Work that "establishes the Law" rather than ignore or make "void" its demands?

    5. Can YOU in your own person and works "establish the law" so as not to make "void" its standard or judgements???

    6. Why must all the types of Christ and the cross require shedding of blood to the extent the life is completely taken - death (which is the penalty of sin) if the cross was not absolutely essential for our salvation?

    7. Why are such bloody types joined with redemptive langauge "for sins" "for cleansing" if Christ is mere exemplory, or if shedding of his blood unto death on the cross is not absoluely essential for our forgiveness of sin?


    PENAL SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT may harmonize with some aspects of other theories, but penal substtitutionary cannot be omitted or denied without completely and utterly destroying and perverting the gospel of Jesus Christ.
     
    #9 The Biblicist, Oct 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2014
  10. The Biblicist

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    The use of Biblical language means NOTHING, unless and except those Biblical terms are given Biblical meaning. So it is not the "sound" of any preacher or message that makes it true, it is the DEFINITION of their words that either make it false or true.
     
  11. Van

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    First of all, this effort to present Calvinist doctrine in a non-Calvinist/arminian debate forum should be corrected by the moderators.

    Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are set apart "in Christ," the sanctification by the Spirit through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    Calvinism says if Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, that means Christ propitiated the whole world. But no verse, not one, says that. Only those who "receive" the reconciliation are saved.

    When John uses the word translated as "world" he means fallen mankind or the corrupt system of fallen mankind.

    Difficult to address this gobbligook, without rewriting it:
    1) Would God punish some who seemed to be "good people" while giving mercy to others (believers) who were guilty of greater sins? Yes. We are all guilty, for all have fallen short of the glory of God.
    2) Did God need to see Christ's blood shed to provide for the forgiveness of sin? Yes, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.
    3) Does the fact that God sent His Son to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of world make God into a " psychotic deity?" No, God's attributes of Holiness and Justice required Jesus be become the sin offering for us.
    4) Were the individual sins of the whole world (every person), past, present and future, legally imputed to Christ on the cross? No, but every individual spiritually placed into Christ, has his sin burden (past, present and future) removed by the "circumcision of Christ."
    5) "Made to be sin" is a traditional translation choice, but the Greek word should be translated as "sin offering." Claiming Jesus became a lump of sin "turns the mercy of God into a magical mystery."
     
    #11 Van, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2014
  12. The Biblicist

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    DHK is not a Calvinist and yet believes in penal substitutionary atonement.
    This post has not addresssed the EXTENT or APPLICATION of the atonement other than to say it was substitutionary and penal. If you believe the application is available to all men without exception OR all men without distinction does not affect what I am speaking about. You are introducing a subject foreign to this post. I am not addressing whether or not the atonement is universal or limited.




    Now, the moderators should rebuke you, as you are the one now introducing the Calvinism versus Arminian element into this debate. This is not a debate about universal or limited atonement as there are men on both sides that believe in penal substitutionary atonement.



    I am talking about "satisfaction" of the Law not about general or limited atonement. You can believe in conditional atonement and still believe in penal substitutionary atonement. If you don't understand that, you don't need to be in this debate, but need to listen and learn.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2014
  13. Van

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    LOL, Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a Trojan horse for limited atonement. If you do not understand that, you do not need to post on this topic.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    What happens is when one becomes so fearful of an opposing view you get ridiculous posts like this.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    We don't agree on a lot but we sure do on this:thumbsup:
     
  16. Van

    Van
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    I suspect Revmitchell does not know Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a Trojan horse for Limited Atonement. Apparently things unknown are seen as ridiculous. :)
     
  17. Revmitchell

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    I don't suspect anything. I know that it is not. In fact, it is most likely the most common held and preached doctrine among Baptist churches where the cross is concerned.


    Also, while I am no where near being a Calvinist, I believe refusal to hold to that doctrine creates serious doctrinal issues.

    So you can go ahead and call that doctrine all the names and characterizations you want. There are a great many preachers and theologians that hold to that doctrine that do not come close to being a cal.

    While I disagree with Calvinism I do not hold your hatred and obsession with it. You really need to get a life.
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    All Revmitchell seems to do is disparage others ( your hatred and obsession, you need to get a life) and offers the logical fallacy that since many Calvinist Baptists hold to that view, it cannot be a Trojan horse for Limited Atonement. Hogwash.

    Lets stick with truth:
    1 John 2:2, Jesus is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

    If Christ died not as a ransom for all, as scripture says, but only for the elect, then Jesus did not die as a ransom for all. So we must redefine the meaning of all to mean "all elect." Why would Christ become the means of salvation for the whole world, if He only died for the supposedly previously chosen elect? He wouldn't. So we must redefine "world" to mean "elect world." We can go on and keep rewriting and redefining and adding to scripture till the cows come home. Does not change that Christ died to provide the propitiationary shelter for all mankind, and so anyone God puts spiritually in Christ "receives" the reconciliation.

    In summary, "penal substitution atonement" means Christ died only for the Elect, and atoned only for the specific sins, past, present and future, of the elect. It is a mistaken doctrine and a Trojan horse for Limited Atonement.
     
    #18 Van, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2014
  19. Revmitchell

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    That is not what it means at all and it is an absurd claim.
     
  20. preachinjesus

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    This is one of the most absurd things I've read on this board in a long time. Please stop. Either get informed, or please stop.
     

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