per The RCC, WHAT aspect of salvation is lacking in cross of Christ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by DaChaser1, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1
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    Why additional sacramental graces needed, IF jesus paid it all, all to Him we owe?

    Or was there sin that His death failed to atone for, and we have to cover that part in order to be saved by God?
     
  2. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
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    Our Allegance.

    The Sacramental Graces are offered to give us assistance and guidance to continue living our lives for Jesus Christ.

    Now let me ask you a question. According to you when you first believed all your sins were forgiven right? Now what happens when you sin after that point? According to you God already forgave it. What need is there for repentance? Does God forgive you if you do not repent of your sin?

    Catholics believe that once we repent, have faith in Jesus Christ, and become baptized into the Kingdom of God. We are saved. However, we believe that if a person in this state then chooses to sin specifically commiting sin with these in mind 1) Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter. 2) It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense 3) 3.It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

    We consider this sin to be on the level of a renunciation of the faith, or apostasy. This must be confessed and the person must repent again (180 degree turn around from their progess of life.) We believe Jesus will forgive if the person repents. However, if a person will not turn from their sin and not repent they loose salvation.
     
  3. DaChaser1

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    Evangelicals see it as the act of justification places us back into relationship/fellowship with God, as jesus paid in full the sin obligation owed to the father...

    Regardless of our sins, the relationship forever secured, as its based upon finished work of Christ on the Cross, bu tit does affect fellowship and does bring forth Godly chaistement to correct us back to Him in repentance/confession/forsaking that particular sin...


    Think the RCC views it backwards, as you see it as God enabling us to become saucntified enouh by the Grace of the sacraments to have him able to decalre us just, as we would spiritiual now be right enough with Him to be justified!

    RCC hated Luthor point of God able to declare freely a sinner still to be now a saint!
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    First, let me fully acknowledge that your question is an excellent question and one that needs to be addressed and answered by those who believe in justification by faith alone.

    Having admitted that, now let me point out a distinction, whether you agree with it or not, that provides the logical (and I believe Biblical) response to your question.

    We believe that justifcation gives you a POSITIONAL and LEGAL righteousness free from all sin. We do not believe that justification EXPERIENTIALLY LEGALLY removes all sin from your person and life. Thus we believe that in order for a child of God to EXPERIENTIALLY access what he has POSITIONALLY he must deal with sin in his life or it cause EXPERIENTIAL problems (chastening, loss of joy, loss of fellowship, loss of rewards, experiential reaping what he sows; stagnent growth, etc., etc.).

    Therefore, confession of sin only obtains EXPERIENTIAL cleansing of our conscience and obtains EXPERIENTIAL access to TEMPORAL salvational blessing and ETERNAL rewards.

    Hence, all our sins have been remitted, past, present and future. When Christ die don the cross all our sins were yet future and if he died for any he had to die for all because all were yet future. In justification we obtain the LEGAL POSITION of sinlessness and thus righteousness (Rom. 4:5-8). In progressive sanctification we EXPERIENCE that POSITION by confessing our sins and partaking the blessings through the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.

    Our LEGAL POSITION in Christ obtain entrance into heaven.
    Our PRACTICE in Christ (walk in the Spirit) obtains EXPERIENTIAL temporal blessings of that position here and now and eternal rewards in heaven.
     
  5. mont974x4

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    Per the RCC, as stated in their document called the Unam Sanctum, what is lacking is our submission to their pope. That would include our acceptance of their unbiblical teachings, including but not limited to, the teachings related to the sacraments, praying to dead saints, worship of Mary and other forms of idolotry and confession to one of their priests.
     
  6. Thinkingstuff

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    What if they don't adhere to Godly chaistiesment and do not repent because they love their sin?

    BTW at that point of baptism we are Justified and in the right relationship with God (Catholic belief) However, when we sin after that point we damage our perfect relationship with God and must repent.
     
    #6 Thinkingstuff, Feb 17, 2012
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  7. Thinkingstuff

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    Give me some time to desipher what you said. Still trying to work out what you are actually saying.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Ok. Let me summarize it this way. Walking after the Spirit is how the believer brings what he has legally and positionall in Christ into his personal EXPERIENCE. What he experiences is always partial and progressive and is never his full experience until glorification.

    I confess my sins not merely because it is commaded, but because that is the only way I can EXPERIENCE cleansing and the blessings of salvation in this life. When I do not obey the Lord I make experiential death part of my LIFE as I am being separated (death) from the EXPERIENCE of God's blessings that come with obedience. Thus I experience a "WRETCHED" condition that can EXPERIENTIALLY grow more severe any time I am "walking after the flesh" and I am ALWAYS either walking after the flesh or the Spirit. The time I am walking after the Spirit I am "REDEEMING THE TIME" but when I am walking after the flesh that time and experience is LOST forever in regard to making it count for God's glory and for my personal growth, blessings and eternal rewards.
     
  9. Thinkingstuff

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    Mind you I'm still working out what you are trying to say but if I understand you correctly. When you sin (in the manner I prescribed) then it doesn't affect your relationship with God apart from lost personal experience? So then theoretically then based on what you said rebellion only affects your experience and failed opportunities to redeem the time? Is this correct?
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    It does not affect your "relationship" with God but it drastically affects your "fellowship" with God and your own personal experiential stability both internally and externally.

    I don't know if I would describe it as a "lost personal experience" but lost time and a progressively wretched experience as one continues in unrepentance:

    3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
    4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

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    Wow and I thought the Catholic Church minced words!!! You are at least equal to them!!! How can your relationship not be affected but your fellowship is? I mean really? And what do you mean by "your own personal experiential stability both internally and externally"? So what if you ruin your experience? Who cares? Because ultimately your relationship with God is ok? Man that means I can pick the sins I enjoy and exchange them for my internal and external experience stability. I mean that explains why at my old baptist church a man was allowed to be a deacon even though he charged more for a project than the church agreed and never finished it making the church pay twice for that project to get done. Or another man was aloud to be a decon though he was living with his girlfriend. Their relationship with God hadn't been corrupted.

    maybe but those guys didn't seem wretched to me.

    Any believer has this sentiment. but I get your point. However, I think you need to work on the explanation a bit.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Do you have children? That relationship was established by birth was it not? Have your children ever done anything that disrupted their fellowship with you? Have they ever disrespected you, disobeyed you? Did that Unborn them so they were no more RELATED to you or did it cause FELLOWSHIP problems between you? Were you in SWEET fellowship with them while they disrespected you or openly and willfully disobeyed you?

    Have you ever had parents that love you and would not let you get away with openly and willfully disobeying or disrespecting them? How did you feel inside when you thought about approaching them while unrepentant? How did your conscience make you feel? Were you UNBORN by those actions and no more RELATED to them as son and parents?

    Isn't that what Hebrews 12:5-10 is all about? Isn't that what Psalm 32:2-3 all about? Fellowship not relationship
     
  13. DaChaser1

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    It would be the example of King david, feeling the effects spiritually/physically/mentally of attempting to hide his sin from God and his people!

    he was experiencing effects of unconfessed/unrepentent sin before God, and once restored back could again delight in his salvation!
     
    #13 DaChaser1, Feb 17, 2012
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  14. DaChaser1

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    bible though makes it very clearthat one MUST have placed personal faith in christ in order to get saved/justified!

    Again, perfect relationship forever secured by receiving Christ, just fellowship can and does get affected by living in state of rebellion against God, by refusing to confess/repent known sin!
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

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    You know that I do.
    No it was established at conseption.
    Yes and hurt their relationship with me as well. Fellowship and relationship go hand in hand.
    Yes. And thus they needed to do certain things to make it right with me and restore the relationship.
    No. But if they had walked out of the house and refused to return which is what we are really talking about then yes. Doesn't make them unborn but certainly cuts the relationship.
    nope.

    Yes.
    I felt I was right. A kind of self- righteous feeling. I wasn't unborn but certainly cut the relationship
    My father told me to leave his house. And I did never to return. And you know when that happened? After I had a born again experience and left the family (and my inheretance btw) in favor of protestantism.

    nope as they go hand in hand. I don't see the dichotomy that you do.
     
  16. Thinkingstuff

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    Accordingly, someone puts faith in Christ but holds on to lets say sexual immorality? This is rebellion against God. Does God turn a blind eye to this for you?
     
  17. DaChaser1

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    IF the person continues to live in such a state without ANY evidence of remorse/guilt willingness to coness and forsake it...

    Would doubt was even saved by God!
     
  18. DHK

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    It doesn't make them unborn, and neither can you or they ever change their genetic make-up. Neither can a true child of God change "his." He can never "not be a child of God," which God made him. He does "not lose that genetic make-up, so called. Once a child, always a child, no matter what comes next.
     
  19. DHK

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    There is no such thing as a "sacramental grace." Try to find that one in the Bible.

    Grace is simply the free unmerited favor of God. Once that definition is cleared up then one can see more clearly. The RCC has redefined grace.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Is not your RELATIONSHIP between you and your children established by "conception"? What made them your children versus someone else's children? Was it their actions or conception between you and your spouse?

    Do you really thing what they do after conception reverses conception? Do you think what they do after birth undoes conception?

    We talk about our RELATIVES because we are RELATED by marriage, conception or adoption. That is the basis of our RELATIONSHIP.

    When we talk about how we GET ALONG WITH EACH OTHER that is our fellowship.

    God's children become children by "new birth" and that is what establishes their spiritual relationship to God. Their practice determines their fellowship with God or how they are getting along with each other.
     

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