Perseverance of the Saints - denied?

Jesus seems to think differently...

Mat 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Act 1:14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Act 2:42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Heb 12:7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct?

 

HP: This is indeed an interesting verse. I am addressing you, not because I agree or disagree with what you believe, but rather to ascertain your response and to facilitate discussion.

If all is settled for eternity the moment we believe, what is left to be worked out?

As I read Scripture, I find that salvation is only accomplished in a sense in this life, and is culminated in the next entirely. Salvation is a process that begins with a one time act, continues as we walk with him in a probationary state, and then is culminated as we stand before Him in judgment. I can say, I have been saved, I am being saved , and I will be saved.

Since our walk is one of faith as opposed to the absolute knowledge so many falsely claim to have, we must continue to work out our salvation in this world by a life of obedience just as this Scripture states, without which we will not be found to have Christ as our advocate at the judgment bar of God.

Sure we now are in possession of eternal life, but that knowledge is held by faith. Scripture is exceedingly clear, one can have faith and yet become reprobate. One can leave ones first love and be lost in the end. The promise of eternal life is only held in sure hope as we walk in the light as He is in the light.

What are your thoughts?

 

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

This does NOT say (as some seem to suppose):

He that shall NOT perserve to the end, he shall NOT be saved.
It says only:
He that shall preservere to the end, he shall be saved.

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The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

 

HP: The verse reads, “Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

That verse clearly implies that if one does not persevere unto the end he will not be saved in the end.

Many other verses state or imply the same truth. Here are a few of them
“Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for IN DOING THIS thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”
1Sa 12:14 If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:
Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

 

Heavenly Pilgrim

 

HP: What does the word ‘should’ in this verse mean to you?

 

It is a word not present in the Greek but added so the
English sentence follows the rules of English Grammar.

So 'should not perish' means the same as 'not perish'.

'Not perish' and 'eternal life' are flip sides of the same coin.
The concept of 'end' is not any part of this concept.
Once you get saved, your salvation will NOT end, else
you never did have 'eternal life'.

 

HP: Why is the word ‘should’ not in italics?

What rule of English grammer denotes that the word 'should' be used as opposed to say, 'will,' 'can,' or 'may?' Are they all equally correct, portraying the same meanings?

 

John 3:16 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
For God loved the world in this way:
He gave His only Son,
so that everyone who believes in Him
will not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (NRSV):
For God so loved the world
that he gave his only Son,
so that everyone who believes in him
may not perish but may have eternal life

 

John 3:16 (NASB = New American Standard Bible):
For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him
shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

HP: How do two translations, most likely taken from the corrupt Westcott-Hort text, prove that
1. the word should is not in the original text, and
2. that some English grammar rule forces the word ‘should’ into the text as you stated earlier?

Are you suggesting that there is no clear distinction between ‘should not,’ ‘may not,’ or ‘will not’ in the English language?

That sounds like Okienomics to me

 

I went to www.studylight.org and looked at John 3:16 in their interlinear Bible using the KJV and the TR and both should and perish in the verse went to the same place and the definition was.

1. to destroy
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   2. render useless
   3. to kill
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
   1. to lose

I will have to wait until I get home later in the week to see what my KJV/Greek interlinear says.

 

Let’s assume for argument sake that there is a sales program that rewards high achievers and that if in fact they meet certain goals they will receive a car. Now it is understood by all those in the company that there is another policy in effect that states that if those goals are not met on an annual basis, the car can be taken back.

Are the following statements concerning the offer of a car by the company in question true and which of the following are either false or cannot be stated absolutely? Could it be that they all imply the very same thing?

• If you meet certain sales objectives you will, i.e., you are guaranteed, to receive a car.

• If you meet certain sales objectives you should receive a car.

• If you meet certain sales objectives you may receive a car.

Now that these questions are answered, does #1 'mandate' that the car is yours forever without any qualifications or conditions being met due to the fact it is guaranteed by a reputable company? Does stating an offer in terms that are guaranteed make such an offer ‘of necessity’ to preclude all conditions?

 

HP: How do two translations, most likely taken from the corrupt Westcott-Hort text, prove that
1. the word should is not in the original text, and
2. that some English grammar rule forces the word ‘should’ into the text as you stated earlier?

It seems obvious to me. The word in front of 'perish' is added to
make the English follow it's own rules. The SHOULD
(or whatever) is not in the Greek.

BTW, the HCSB (AKA: Southern Baptist Bible) is NOT
based on the Westcott-Hort text (though to be honest, they
do deal with it, as do all currently honest English Translations.
And the Westcott-Hort original language source is
not CORRUPT.

 

Very bad example.
Say that your boss likes your work so much he says:
"You did good work. I'm going to give you a Ford Explorer 2008
model as soon as it comes out."

Do you have a Ford Explorer 2008? Yes!

Well the example breaks down here because the
Boss could get laid off, Ford might not exist next year
or might not make an Explorer, etc.
But those statements that are backed by God - they
were true, are true, and will be true in the future.

I was just as saved back in 1952 when Jesus saved me
as I am now saved and jsut as much as
I will be saved at the Rapture/resurrection/change
when Jesus gives me a glorified body.

Consider three types of salvation for the already Christian:

1. Justification Salvation - PAST - Just-as-if-I'd never sinned.
Initial salvation by faith in Messiah Jesus

2. Scantification Salvation - PRESENT - the daily clensing
of a person per 1 John 1:9. Daily salvation by
faith in Messiah Jesus

3. Glorification Salvation - FUTURE - the new/improved
permenant body when Jesus comes to get His own.
Future salvation by faith in Messiah Jesus

If you got one of these salvations, you aught to get
them all. If you don't get Scantification Salvation daily
then you might check yourself to see if you got
Justification Salvation earlier???

 

Yeah, if your salvation is "scant", you should check it out! :laugh:

 

HP: The translators sure thought it was. Possibly you feel you are more adept at the GK than they?