Perseverance of the Saints or Once saved always saved

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Rich_UK, Aug 21, 2004.

  1. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    After readin Baptistas thread entitled "Eternal Security or Perseverance of the Saints" I would like to know peoples opinions of the difference between the 2. Are there only 2 schools of thought on eternal security or are there more? If so, what are the differences.....Thoughts?
     
  2. Ray Berrian

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    It is my understanding that Perseverence says that those who are truly saved will persevere until the time of their death.

    Eternal Security understands that all of the saved will finally get to Heaven, but not all 'born of the Spirit believers' will remain faithful unto the hour of their death, sad as this really is for us to receive.

    It is my understanding is that formally, the fifth point of Calvinism is Perseverence of the Saints and not Eternal Security.

    Eternal Security is true because of John 10:28-30 & I John 5:18.

    I am a four point Arminian and a one point Calvinist if you take eternal security to be the same as the fifth point of Calvinism.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    4 Point Calvinists have the BEST case for OSAS AND assurance - no question. But they buy this at the "price" of ignoring the scriptures that speak of "perseverance".

    5-point Calvinists have the worst case for assurance - but they have a good case for OSAS - SINCE they only count salvation from the point of a conversion AND continuous full perseverence to the 2nd coming. EVEN Arminians can agree with the 5-pt Calvinist on that segement of the Christian life.


    So - leaving the 4 point Calvinist case alone-- I say again: "Arminians can be ASSURED that they are saved today but can not KNOW they will still be saved 10 years from now -- 5 Point Calvinists can't even be assured of that since they retro-delete TODAYs assurance when it is discovered that ten years from now you fail to persevere".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Ray, when you speak of the 5th point in Calvinism being "eternal security" (preservation of the saints) RATHER Than "perseverance of the saints" you are identifying what is called 4-pt Calvinism.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Bob,

    You said, quote: 'Ray, when you speak of the 5th point in Calvinism being "eternal
    security" (preservation of the saints) RATHER Than "perseverance of the saints" you are identifying what is called 4-pt Calvinism.'

    Ray, quote: 'I was always under the impression that people who believe in the first four points of Calvinism, plus eternal security, thought of themselves as five point Calvinists.

    Maybe a couple of them can respond to our understanding of them.' {end quote}
     
  6. Primitive Baptist

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    I thought that 4-Point Calvinists (Moderate Calvinists) differed from 5-Point Calvinists on Limited Atonement, not Perseverance. Oh well...

    Ray, if your definitions are right, Primitive Baptists believe Eternal Security. Most Primitive Baptists call it Preservation (Jude 1.1). We are exhorted to perseverance (Eph. 6.18), but never to preserve ourselves in Christ Jesus. [​IMG]

    That is still one of my biggest "hang-ups," if you will, with Perseverance.
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Bob,

    I did mean to write Perseverence of the Saints rather than Preseverence . . .

    Thanks for correcting me; inverting two letters does make a difference.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    4pt Calvinists stop at point 4 (Limited atonement) and change perseverence to preservation of the saints. (Eternal security)

    But there is a huge difference.

    5 Pt calvinists believe in perseverence of the saints AND in preservation (eternal security) --

    However 4-pt Calvinists have a model that SUPPORTS assurance in the context of preservation of the saints because it holds that preseverence is optional.

    Once you do that - there is no way to fall or to have your assurance today - revoked by some future failure.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Sularis

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    Actually Bob Ive run across some hyper's that dont believe in preservation but solely perserverance - that if truly saved we would be so Spirit-empowered as to be impossible to sin

    Ive also met Calvinists that believe as you claim both perservere and preservation - but that is a small minority

    the instant you stick the preservation you get the foaming at the mouth from most Calvinists - much like if you would get if you say everyone is born with sin that damns them immediately.

    preervation links to the idea of back-sliding and too some people that is intolerable

    Hey you might want to create a poll on that?
     
  10. BobRyan

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    The 4pt Calvinists on this board have at times declared themselves to be "5-pt" where the 5th point becomes "preservation" instead of "Perseverance". In other word they believe God preserves the "saint status" (OSAS) at the cost of perseverance - and in so doing they restore the "assurance" lost in the real 5 pt model.

    Hence -- In the 4-pt view, the fact that you fail to persevere 10 years from now - has not bearing at all on your assurance today or on your salvation today. In that model you get BOTH OSAS and assurance.

    But in the real 5 pt model - you can only get OSAS from the model itself. Most will "claim assurance anyway" but will admit that when they fail to persevere 10 years from now - their OWN 5-pt peers will denounce the assurance they are claiming to have today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. billwald

    billwald
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    question is moot because there is no test for "saved."
     
  12. BobRyan

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    So then "no assurance"?

    I did not think I would see a Calvinist admit that. You must be 3 or 5-point Calvinist. (In which case I would argue that you are being consistent)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    These two do not conflict. They go hand in hand. Once you are saved, you are always saved, and you will persevere in the faith. Those who do not persevere show themselves to have never been saved.

    Assurance of salvation, however, is a different matter. Assurance is subjective; salvation is not. One can be completely sure of his salvation and not have it; another can have no assurance and still be saved.

    If someone finally fails to persevere, they are not saved. Someone may live in sin for a time, and give themselves no reason for assurance, and give those around them the right and responsibility to confront them about their living and their spiritual condition.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    You are right - one can not have assurance and still be saved.

    You are wrong about one being "completely assured of salavtion" as a lost depraved wicked person.

    Christ said "peace I give - NOT as the World Gives". John 14.

    Paul says this is "peace that passes understanding" and adds with the point "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God" Romans 8.

    So when you say "completely sure" you don't mean "as in the complete deal that the Bible describes assurance to be" - do you?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    What about people who trust in works who are completely assured that they are getting to heaven because of their works? What about hindus or Buddhists or Muslims who are completely assured of heaven? What about these suicide bombers who are completely assured of getting to heaven? You really think that Satan or self can't imitate God's peace?

    I don't think it is biblical assurance. I do think there is an false assurance that is completely convincing.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    I use the term "completely assured" to mean the COMPLETE experience of assurance as God defines it in scripture.

    You claim that "self-deception" is in fact "complete assurance" and is "as complete" as any saint would have it.

    I reject that notion.

    Christ said "NOT as the World Gives" in John 14 speaking of that peace that comes alone from God.

    The point remains.

    The Arminian can KNOW (be completely assured) that he/she is saved to day but can not know that they will continue to remain saved 10 years from now.

    The 3 and 5 point Calvinists can not even know that since they retro-delete today's assurance based on failing to persevere 10 years from now.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. koreahog2005

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    The five-point Calvinist J.I. Packer, a theology professor at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia, discussed perseverance:

    (Packer, Concise Theology: A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs, 1993, page 241)
     
  18. BobRyan

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    In any case - once you agree to perseverence - then when you fail to persevere 10 years from now - every 5 point Calvinist you know will retro-delete your assurance today based on that fact - as you would do to them today.

    So also would Packer.

    Hence the problem with marrying those two together outside of the Arminian model. Assurance AND perseverence only work in the Arminian model.

    4 Point Calvinists solve the problem in favor of assurance by tossing perseverence out the window (no matter what the Bible says about it).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. billwald

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    So then "no assurance"?

    I suppose there are two kinds of assurance, general and personal. Personal would be private communications from God - like to Paul on the road. I have never received one.

    A general assurance would be God's promise to do right plus the human continuing to work out his salvation.
     
  20. billwald

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    Why would anyone care unless the person was planning a future sin?
     

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