Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, May 30, 2014.
What are your pet peeves of the SBC?
I have none, other than to be wary of the infiltration of Calvinism into the church. Regardless of what is claimed on this board and elsewhere, the SBC is not traditionally a Calvinist denomination. It adheres to many of the concepts of Calvinism, but is not a strictly five-point denomination, and never has been.
I'm going to use this thread to reply to convicted1 regarding his confusion about the SBC, given I don't want to further derail the "Going to the Convention" thread.
That's the name of a church, and it could be affiliated with any of the 80+ Baptist denominations in the U.S. alone. The Southern Baptist Convention is a body of affiliated churches -- some of which affiliate with more than one denomination -- of like mind, purpose, and belief. It is, as Salty said, itself a denomination.
Calling the SBC a denomination.
Remember denomination has two definitions:
1) a hierarchy
2) those with a common belief
which means that even IBF'ers are a denomination!
(note the small "d")
In the SBC one has a constitution, a set of beliefs to adhere to, a convention to go to elected officers I presume, and even a web page that represents all said churches that join it. It in and of itself is a denomination. In that you speak rightly.
The IFB churches are exactly what their name says they are: "independent." They have no unifying constitution or statement of faith. In most case each one is different than each others. In many cases some would never fellowship with another. This is especially true when it comes to separation from extreme KJVO positions, and extreme Calvinist positions. We are different but independent. We are not homogenous as the SBC as we have nothing to tie us together, and thus not a denomination.
There are independent "Bible" churches that have Baptistic doctrine and are more fundamental than some of the churches that claim the fundamental name. Where do you put them? In some cases they drop the Baptist name because in their areas the Baptists have become an embarrassment.
In no way can these churches fall into the category of a denomination. The word "independent" is the opposite meaning of "denomination." Putting the two together: independent denomination is an oxymoron.
Every local SBC affiliated church is independent. Many churches do not accept the latest version of the SBC Baptist Faith and Message. Resolutions passed by the Convention are NOT binding on SBC affiliated churches.
And the same can be said of SBC churches. As far as constitutions - many are based on churches of "like faith"
Don't most, if not all Baptist churches accept the B.A.P.T.I.S.T. statement? That would in essence make us a "denomination".
We are united in a Rope of Sand
independent denomination = local congregational ruled assembly.
Baptist is a denomination. The SBC is a cooperative.
And yet they choose to identify themselves as "Independent Fundamental Baptist" churches. Sometimes they add the word "traditional." But I just did a search of independent fundamental baptist churches in the Kansas City area, and this is what I got.
Independent fundamental Baptist churches, Kansas City
I want you to note all the websites dedicated to locating churches with such a description in both Missouri and Kansas. Does that really make sense, if they aren't a "denomination," or loosely affiliated, even if they can't stand one another? I think your claim fails.
You can also do a search for "Baptists". That puts all in one denomination. But that is not what we are talking about is it. In fact my church (IFB) is closer doctrinally to some conservative SBC churches than it is to some IFB churches. All IFB churches are not the same. Independent and denomination are not the same. They are independent for a reason.
Your link is phone book done by secular personnel. Of course it will do a listing according to the "names" of the churches and not the beliefs. This is a self-evident truth. We have had some so-called IFB believers banned from this board because of their extreme beliefs on some issues.
Don't be blind. Even others say that the decisions made at the top affect the other SBC churches.
SBC churches are of like faith or they wouldn't be SBC churches. That is a given. IFB churches, by definition of the word "Independent" are not necessarily of "like faith." I have already given you some examples of that.
No. I don't accept everything in that statement.
We are far from united.
We are not a denomination. In our case we don't belong to an association of any kind, though some IFB churches do.
No, actually, we're talking about SBC churches, which means your original comment derailed the thread.
Without checking for the verifiable data that would be implied by this statement, I would venture to say that SBC churches are far more diverse and eclectic in the range of beliefs, practices and ministry than are IFB churches.
Neither are SBC churches, in fact (as I just said) likely far more different than are self-described IFBs.
"Autonomous" stands out as a hallmark of the SBC movement for a reason.
But not unique as a local church, because they are not as "diverse" as the SBC churches are.
Why don't you try reading the "About" pages of their websites, or their "What We Believe" statements? That's what I did. There isn't a nickle's worth of difference in any of them.
And probably more that should be.
That was an unnecessary jab. I am sure that many associated with the SBC have been banned as well "and probably more that should be." They seem to be the majority on here.
Then why did you broach the subject in the first place?
My pet peeves of the SBC? Lifeway.
This thread is not meant to be about the fact that SBC affilated churches are independent.
Now, as far as Lifeway - what specifically do you dislike about Lifeway?
By rejecting the historic core beliefs that made Baptists Baptist they are no longer Baptist.
Also the movement to becoming a creedal church
Intriguing. Do explain. Srsly.
And I concur with the other poster when I say "what ABOUT Lifeway?" I'm curious.
The slow move away from the doctrines of Grace over the many years into a more Arminian SBC. Call it what you want but the SBC isn't what it was in the mid 1800s.
That is historical revisionism.