Pharisees- What ARE they?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Claudia_T, Jan 3, 2007.

  1. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    People accuse those who believe in keeping the Law of God as being a "Pharisee", but it just shows they dont even realize what a Pharisee is.

    A Pharisee is someone who tries to earn salvation and who claims to keep the law but doesnt. The Pharisees went around believing in "Thou shalt not kill" while hating their neighbor. They were whited walls.

    Jesus said to the Pharisees to stop cleaning just the outside of the cup while leaving the inside filthy. Jesus DID NOT, I repeat DID NOT say to just dont worry about either the inside or the outside of the cup. THAT my friends is what most Christians are teaching today. Unfortunately. Cheap Grace.


    THIS is what Jesus told the Pharisees:

    Mt:23:23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


    NOW you tell me, did Jesus say DONT KEEP THE LAW? what were they doing? They neglected LOVE which was the weightier matter of the law ...while they just kept the law outwardly. Jesus said DO BOTH! THAT, my friends, is what a Pharisee is. SDAs are not Pharisees just because they bring to light the claims of the Law. okayyyyyyy?? Got that?


    sorry but it just irks me when people start throwing around this accusation of people who believe in keeping the commandments as being "Pharisees".


    Jesus said our righteousness needs to EXCEED that of the Pharisees!

    Mt:5:20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Then He explained by saying, things like, You have heard Thou shalt not kill well Im telling you that inwardly you have to keep this commandment and not hate your brother.... in your heart...

    Im telling you that it has been said Thou shalt not commit adultery, well Im telling you that you arent supposed to break that law in your heart...

    Cant you see? Jesus was trying to say the same thing as when He said the Pharisees cleaned the OUTSIDE of the cup while inwardly they were wicked. He DID NOT say oh just forget about the Law... He said REALLY KEEP IT!

    and people will use this line, well do YOUUUUUUUUU keep the commandments? well thats irrelevant... SOMEBODY DID!

    Lk:1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


    So please stop acting like God commands us to do something we cannot do.... we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Of course we will often fall and fail but God isnt sitting there waiting to condemn us! He loves us and is very patient with us... sanctification is a process.. a lifelong process... we keep beholding Christ and become more and more like Him and if we fail, as we often will, the Bible says we have an Advocate, Jesus Christ.


    We dont do the commandments to somehow EARN salvation, we could never earn a thing. We do it because we love God.

    It is just so wrong and so unfair to accuse people of being a Pharisee, when that isnt even what a Pharisee IS!


    Claudia
     
    #1 Claudia_T, Jan 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2007
  2. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,240
    Likes Received:
    2
    Claudia, I agree. The fact that the Pharisees denied Jesus was the son of God should tell folks here that it isn't a name they should be throwing around. It's a word that makes it's appearance when folks can't scriptually back up their earthly compromising.
     
  3. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Claudia,
    What was a Judaizer?
    Paul denounced them in the Book of Galatians.
    Their doctrine was condemned at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.
    Who were they? What was their doctrine? Why was their doctrine condemned?
     
  4. Donbam

    Donbam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not all P'rushim (Pharisees) denied Yeshua. Nicodemus believed in Yeshua as the Messiah of Israel.

    Rabbi Sha'ul (Paul) was a P'rushim.

    The Pharisees usually get a bum rap as the bad guys throughout the Renewed Covenant. Yeshua had no problem with telling people what the Pharisees did right, and the areas where they were in error.

    Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Y'hudah to Antioch and began teaching the brothers, "You can't be saved unless you undergo b'rit-milah in the manner prescribed by Moshe."

    A group of men that taught one had to undergo circumcision for salvation.

    Acts 15:5 But some of those who had come to trust were from the party of the P'rushim; and they stood up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Torah of Moshe."

    They were beliveing Pharisees, who taught without the consent or knowledge of the Jerusalem Council.

    Same as above required circumcision

    Acts 15:7-19 7 After lengthy debate, Kefa got up and said to them, "Brothers, you yourselves know that a good while back, God chose me from among you to be the one by whose mouth the Goyim should hear the message of the Good News and come to trust. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore them witness by giving the Ruach HaKodesh to them, just as he did to us; 9 that is, he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their heart by trust. 10 So why are you putting God to the test now by placing a yoke on the neck of the talmidim which neither our fathers nor we have had the strength to bear? 11 No, it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered- and it's the same with them." 12 Then the whole assembly kept still as they listened to Bar-Nabba and Sha'ul tell what signs and miracles God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 Ya'akov broke the silence to reply. "Brothers," he said, "hear what I have to say. 14 Shim'on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name. 15 And the words of the Prophets are in complete harmony with this for it is written, 16 '"After this, I will return; and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David. I will rebuild its ruins, I will restore it, 17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name," 18 says ADONAI, who is doing these things.' All this has been known for ages. 19 "Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.

    The talmidim knew that it was circumcision of the heart, not the flesh that mattered.

    There are many that consider Act 15 a stopping point for non-Jewish belivers. I see it as a starting point based on the letter Ya'akov (James) drafted up for those congregations affected by that specific teaching.

    Those things mentioned in the letter would allow non-Jewish believers to have table fellowship and entrance into the synagogue in order to learn Torah.

    I know I'm not Claudia, so I hope you don't mind my hopping in with my two shekels.
     
  5. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0

    Judaizers, they taught that you had to be circumcised.



    But we are supposed to become new creatures, circumcised in our hearts, so to speak:


    Acts:7:51: Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    Gal:6:15: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

    and the new creature we are supposed to become is one who keeps Gods commandments:

    1Cor:7:19: Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.



    We are supposed to have genuine living faith does does good works from the motivation of love:


    Gal:5:6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


    The law is to be written on the heart, no more circumcision.
     
    #5 Claudia_T, Jan 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2007
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    in Mark 7 PRE-CROSS Christ points out that the Pharieess MAKE STUFF UP and replace the Word of God -- in fact the "commandments of God" as Christ said in Mark 7 - with the TRADITIONS of man.

    In Acts 15 you see "them doing it again" in the form of Jewish Christian converts who MAKE UP the idea that Gentiles must ALSO become Jews to be saved -- something not taught in the OT Word of God OR in the NT!

    They were simply "making stuff up" and replacing God's Word with what they "made up".

    I have seen that tried over and over again.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    It has nothing to do with making things up Bob. The Judaizers had a distinct theology, and a definite agenda.

    Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

    We note from this verse that these "believers" of a Jewish background had a two-point theology that they pushed as their agenda.
    1. One must be circumcised.
    2. One must keep the law of Moses.

    I am not sure of the SDA's position on circumcision, nor does it matter to me. But the fact that they demand that one keeps the law of Moses in respect to salvation makes them just like the Judaizers of the time of Paul, whom the Jerusalem council condemned, as well as the Apostle Paul in the Book of Galatians.
     
  8. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    0
    Claudia, having frequent exposure to church-related groups that are like the Pharisees, I can give you a unique perspective.

    I was in the Churches of Christ for two years. I was in one of the better congregations, but they are plagued by problems because they accept influence where they ought not -- from hard-liners. Non-hardline Church of Christ congregations are commonly infected by the influence they allow from hard-line Church of Christ buildings. Hard-line buildings encourage Pharasaic behavior.

    Legalism is a doctrinal error where a person adds rules to be specially pleasing to God or to more strictly keep self's walk clean. However, God's rules are still generally followed.

    In Pharisaic behavior, people add rules of their own, but disregard some of God's rules that do not suit them. The Pharisees strained gnats when they drank liquids to avoid ingesting anything unclean -- but they had no problem with murder when it suited their interests.

    In hard-line Churches of Christ, they make sure a musical instrument never enters the sanctuary, or whatever they call it. The New Testament does not mention musical instruments, and never says a word nullifying Psalm 150. However, if they disagree with someone about religion, they have absolutely no problem slandering that person with no regard for truthfulness and will persist even when corrected. This is in complete disregard of Scripture's repeated admonitions against lying. In religious debates, they will parse words and look for ways to make the victim appear to be saying something s/he is not, and then do so. Worse, they encourage each other in such activity, considering it a skill in `furthering the truth.'

    THAT is Pharisaic behavior.
     
    #8 Darron Steele, Jan 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2007
  9. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0

    The law of Moses and the law of God were two different things.


    Luke 2:22 the Law of Moses was Moses Law

    Isaiah 5:24 The Law of the Lord was the ten commandments



    Ephesians 2:15 the Law contained in ordinances was Moses Law



    2 Chronicles 35:12 The Law of Moses was written BY Moses in a book

    Exodus 31::18;32:16 The Law of God was written by GOD in stone



    Hebrews 7:16 The Law of Moses was Carnal

    The Law of God is spiritual Romans 7:14



    The Law of God will stand forever Luke 16:17

    The Law of Moses ended at the cross Ephesians 2:15



    The Law of Moses was placed IN THE SIDE OF the ark Deut 31:26 (signifying its temporary nature)

    The Law of God was placed INSIDE OF the ark Exodus 40:20 (signifying its perpetual nature)



    I could go on but wont.....
     
    #9 Claudia_T, Jan 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2007
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    That is a good point - adding man-made-tradition "as doctrine" while also iginoring what is actually written in scripture. That is exactly what we see them doing in Mark 7 regarding the eating of wheat.

    I also think it involves removing the idea of having a living relationship with God - that you can substitue with a bunch of man-made ideas of how "you are ok with God anyway even though you are not walking with Him in real life".

    They were fine with embracing their own traditions then claiming that God was stuck with them because after all they were chosen. An early form of OSAS of the 4 Point Calvinist flavor.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    In my humble opinion, the most legalistic thing that a Christian can do is to believe that all they must do is believe and then they are legally off the hook. And they dont think it matters what you do after that. That is the modern day form of legalism that so many Christians are falling for today. Today's Pharisees who want a form of godliness without the power thereof.

    We are supposed to LOVE God when we find out about Him "We love Him because He first loved us" the Bible says, and IF we love God then we will show the fruits of the Spirit and keep the Law.

    I am so sorry that I keep on repeating this over and over again yet people will act as if I hadnt said it and keep accusing me of "Legalism". It is ridiculous.

    A legalistic person is one who keeps the law in order to be saved OR thinks that all they must do is "believe" and then they can act however they want to. BOTH are extremely self centered. You cannot just USE God, legally and expect to be saved, I am sorry. Thats not how it works, we are to develop a love relationship with God.

    You will NOT be saved because of good works but then again you wont be saved without them either. The Thief on the cross was saved but he couldnt climb down off that cross and do anything.

    I stand by that no matter what, simply because the Bible says thats how it is.

    God help those who dont understand the difference between that and "Legalism".

    No matter WHAT anyone says, no matter HOW they try to weasel their way around it, look people, this is what the Bible says:

    1Jn:3:
    14: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
    15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


    LOOK at the above verses, and tell me salvation has NOTHING to do with our actions? FALSE THEOLOGY!!!


    and that doesnt mean just technically "murder" it means if we dont LOVE our neighbor. Romans 13:8-10 says Love is just the summary of all ten commandments. You either love your neighbor or you hate them and if you hate them you are called a "murderer" in the Bible. That is what Jesus meant when He told the Pharisees, you have heard it said Thou shalt not kill but Im telling you that if you hate your brother you are a murderer and in danger of hellfire. Understand? He said our righteousness must EXCEED that of the Pharisees. We need an inner transformation.

    Romans 13:
    8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.



    ....so this "all you have to do is believe" business is not biblical, not at all. Call it legalism if you want to, but that is a terrible error. It is Satanic.

    I hate to have to be so very blunt about this but people are saying "NO, a murder or one who hates his brother and doesnt keep the Law of love CAN pass from death to life". and then they go on to accuse those who believe otherwise as being "Legalistic" and say all you have to do is "believe". This is just WRONG.


    Claudia
     
    #11 Claudia_T, Jan 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2007
  12. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    You sound that you are either confused or deceived or a bit of both.
    Not true.
    God gave Moses the Ten Commandments. It is part of the Mosaic Law, written within the Books of Moses. It cannont be eliminated from it. It is Mosaic Law whether or not you like it.
    All three verses refer to the Law of Moses. You can't pick and choose; pick and choose; pick and choose. You want to obey the Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath, obey the dietary laws, but throw out the laws pertaining to clothing. That is not only inconsistent, but hypocritical.
    And your insistence on keeping it makes you the same thing.
    You take scripture out of context. Read the verse again:

    Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    --The law (God's Word) is spiritual. God's Word is always spiritual, no matter what it is--law or otherwise. But what did the law do? It condemned Paul. It showed him his carnality. Why didn't you quote the whole verse--another sign of your hypocrisy!
    Yes, but only because it point out our sin. It does not stand for us to keep.
    Then it is hypocritical for you to try and keep it.
    If it was temporary why are you trying to keep it?
    It was nailed to the cross. The ark is no more. There is no more Temple. It was destroyed. The only temple that remains is our bodies. The Sabbath does not remain in our bodies and we are not commanded to keep Mosaic Law. You are hypocritial to say that we should.
    It is good that you don't. You are just burying yourself.
     
  13. leenies

    leenies
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2006
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    You GO girl! :thumbsup:
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    In Matt 5 Christ condemns those who trash the Law of God and teach others to do likewise. Matt 5:19 even defending the "very LEAST" of these commandments.

    in Matt 22 Christ quotes from the Law of God and insists that they are to be kept - starting with the Mosaic Law of Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 the "Law of Love".

    In James 2 the SAME Mosaic Law is quoted and upheld for NT saints.

    In Rom 7 Paul ALSO quotes from the Law of scripture - Law of Moses insisting that is still IS spiritual.

    In Rom 3:31 Paul says of the Law that you deny -- "Do we then make VOID the Law of God?? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

    In Heb 4 we are told "THERE REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the People of God" but your man-made traditoin says "O NO it does NOT remain"

    INSTEAD of Col 2 saying "God's LAW is nailed to the cross" AS YOU DO -- the text says that our "CERTIFICATE OF DEBT" is nailed to the cross (NASB) the PAYMENT for our debt of sin - so obvious and so glaringly clear that ALL can read it!!

    Your man made tradition is fully debunked in scripture.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Jan 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2007
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    in Mark 7 PRE-CROSS Christ points out that the Pharieess MAKE STUFF UP and replace the Word of God -- in fact the "commandments of God" as Christ said in Mark 7 - with the TRADITIONS of man.

    In Acts 15 you see "them doing it again" in the form of Jewish Christian converts who MAKE UP the idea that Gentiles must ALSO become Jews to be saved -- something not taught in the OT Word of God OR in the NT!

    They were simply "making stuff up" and replacing God's Word with what they "made up".

    I have seen that tried over and over again.
     
  16. DQuixote

    DQuixote
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2006
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    0
    Speaking of making up stuff, I get a little unhappy when I hear that the only ones going to heaven are 144,000 SDAs.......... something not taught in the OT Word of God OR in the NT!

    Correction: JWs.
     
    #16 DQuixote, Jan 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2007
  17. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    No SDA even teaches that. You have that WRONG. Not even near true.
     
    #17 Claudia_T, Jan 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2007
  18. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    More Scripture taken out of context. When will you stop this tactic? This is the man made tradition of a cult is it not?
    As far as those who "trash the law of God" are concerned, you are one of those who "trash the Word of God," in order to justify your preconceived ideas.
     

Share This Page

Loading...