Please Explain the Woman, the Child, and the Wilderness in Rev. 12

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by InTheLight, Jul 22, 2012.

  1. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,204
    Likes Received:
    611
    Rev. 12

    ...And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
    5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
    6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

    [..]

    13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
    14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
    15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
    16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
     
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    114
  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,204
    Likes Received:
    611
    Thanks for posting that. Interesting. I had figured out some of it, but this commentary shed some light on issues I was unclear on (the river of water that Satan spews at the woman--still kind of sketchy, IMO.)
     
  4. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that the woman represents Israel, the child is Jesus, and the dragon is Satan.

    This will actually be very similar to when the Jews were delivered from Pharaoh. Satan will send an army that will surround Jerusalem. The Lord will set foot on the mount of Olives, the mountain will divide to provide a great valley through which the remnant will escape. When the army of Satan pursues they will be destroyed as Pharaoh was destroyed when he pursued through the Red Sea.

    Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    The two signs, or wonders, are: the woman waiting to give birth and the great red dragon. It is immediately obvious that a strictly literal interpretation of this passage is not indicated. First, the signs, or wonders, appear in heaven. Second, the description of the woman and the appearance of the dragon dictate against a literal interpretation.

    The man-child is obviously Jesus Christ since He alone is to rule all nations [Psalm 2:9, Zechariah 9:10, 1 Corinthians 15:24-25]. Furthermore, the promise that He is to rule all nations with a rod of iron was first made to Jesus Christ in the Messianic Psalm 2 and is reiterated in Revelation 2:27 and 19:15. This understanding is held by many who take an idealist or futurist [including many dispensationalists] interpretation of Revelation [Gregg Revelation, Four Views, 253ff]. The above passage skips over the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and proceeds directly to His ascension. When the work of the Saviour is completed He is caught up to the throne of God.

    The question then becomes: who does the woman represent? Note that the woman gives birth to the man-child and then flees to a place prepared by God in the wilderness where she is nourished for 1260 days or forty two months the same period of time that the two witnesses testify and the holy city is trodden underfoot by the unbelieving peoples. It is necessary that the identity of the woman who gives birth to the man-child be consistent with the identity of the woman who is nourished in the wilderness. The Scriptures are clear that the Messiah will come from the seed of woman [Genesis 3:15], from the seed of Abraham [Genesis 22:18, Galatians 3:16], from the seed of Jacob [Genesis 28:14], and from the seed of David [2 Samuel 7:12ff]. One might conclude that the woman who is to give birth represents the nation Israel. However, we are then left with a problem of the identity of the woman after the man child is caught up to Heaven. Is the one who fled to a place prepared by God national Israel? Certainly not. The nation Israel rejected God’s Messiah [John 1:11, Matthew 22:33-46], God rejected the nation Israel [Matthew 21:43], and there is no subsequent Scripture that indicates a future change. The roll of the nation Israel in God’s purpose of salvation was finished. However, the elect of Israel [Romans 11:1-5], the faithful remnant, did not reject the Messiah and, therefore, became the nucleus of the New Testament Church. Furthermore, the Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 9-11 that God has not rejected the elect of Israel. However, their salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ.

    The most acceptable interpretation of the significance of the woman is that before ‘giving birth’ she represents the true Israel of God, the believing remnant [Isaiah 10:20-23]. Even as the woman cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered, so the true Israel longed for the coming of the Messiah [Matthew 13:17, John 8:56, Hebrews 11]. The Apostle Paul writes in his letter to the church at Rome:

    Romans 11:26, KJV
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Those who take the futurist approach to the interpretation of Revelation apply this passage of Scripture to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. However, it is a fact of Scripture and history that the Deliverer, Jesus Christ, has already come out of Zion in accord with the prophetic writings of Isaiah:

    Isaiah 28:16, KJV
    16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    And confirmed by the writing of the Apostle Peter:

    1 Peter 2:6, KJV
    6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    The woman is delivered of the man child, the Messiah, Jesus. With the coming of Jesus Christ the Old Covenant is passing away [Hebrews 8:13]. With His death the New Covenant is in force [Hebrews 9:14-16] and the woman is then representative of the Church. In each case she represents the Israel of God for there is direct continuity between the true people of God under the Old Covenant and the true people of God under the New Covenant. Paul clearly demonstrates this using the analogy of the olive tree in Romans 11.
     
  6. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    The only coherent way to interpret the passage is a historical/historicist interpretation.

    I take the passage to be Israel/Mary, the Messiah, and Satan. Seems pretty straightforward.

    Just as a note, I take a historicist/futurist interpretation of Revelation. Given that Revelation alludes to the OT and has a Jewish apocalyptic overtone to the whole book. The only chapters I take as futurist are the Revelation 19-22. The rest are (imho) clearly historical.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    15-16 St. John continues his Exodus imagery,reminding us of when the children of Israel had been trapped “between the devil and the deep Red Sea”:
    And the Serpent threw water like a river out of hismouth after the Woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. The dragon’s pursuit of her by throwing a waterflood after her is a generalized image
    for the action of Pharaoh, who (1) commands Israelite children and especially Moses to be washed down the Nile, (2) comes out after escaping Israel with a host,and (3) counts on the Red Sea to shut Israel in.”40 TheBiblical imagery was familiar: a menacing river seeking to overwhelm God’s people, flowing from the mouth of
    her enemies (Ps. 18:4, 16; 124:3-6; Isa. 8:5-8; 59:19; Jer.
    46:7-8; 47:2; Hos. 5:10).
    But again, as in the Exodus, the Dragon’s plan is foiled:The Land helped the Woman, and the Land opened
    its mouth and drank up the river which the Dragon threw out of his mouth.41 The picture is partially based on the incident recorded in Numbers 16:28-33,when the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the instigators of a rebellion against Moses.“The great thought in all these images is that divine power is put forth to deliver and sustain the New Testament Church of God in the day
    of her persecution – the same power that of old wrought the miracles of Egypt, and of the Red Sea, and of the wilderness.”42 That is indeed St. John’s emphasis here.
    The Church is divinely protected and preserved through all her tribulations. . By the time Rome attacks, the Woman is long gone; the Land ofIsrael swallows up the river of wrath, absorbing the blow in her place. The destruction of Jerusalem left the true City and Temple unharmed, for they were safe with the Woman under the shadow of the Almighty.
    17 The Dragon had only “a short time” (v. 12) to destroy the Church, and he failed again. Frustrated in his attempt to destroy the Mother Church, he was enraged with the Woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her seed, the Christians who were
    unharmed by the Dragon’s war with the Woman. How is the Church symbolized by both the Woman and her
    children? “These distinctions are easily made and maintained. The Church, considered as an institution and an organic body, is distinguishable from her children, as Isaiah 66:7-8 and Galatians 4:22-26 clearly show. . . .Having been thwarted in his designs to destroy both the Mother and her Seed, the Dragon turns in rage against the rest of her seed, the (predominantly Gentile) Christian Church throughout the Empire. Let us note well St. John’s description of these brothers and sisters of the Lord Jesus Christ: They keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (1 John 2:3-4)
    For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
    (1 John 5:3)
    As St. John has already informed us, the saints overcome the Dragon through the word of their testimony and their faithful obedience, even unto death (v. 11). The following chapters will detail several crucial stages in the continuing war between the seed of the Serpent and the seed of the Woman. The passage is not meant to be chronologically accurate, as if the Dragon turns against the rest of the Church only after the failure of the Jewish War. Rather, the flight of the Judean Church is only the culmination of a series of deliverances throughout the Last Days, symbolized by the flight of the Woman. St. John is describing in images the various stratagems devised by Satan for destroying the Church, and he shows them all to becomplete failures. The Dragon is fighting a losing
    battle, for he has already been defeated at the Cross anat the Tomb. There is not a square inch of ground inheaven or on earth or under the earth where there is peace between the Serpent and the Seed of the Woman, and Christ has already won overwhelmingly,
    on every front. Ever since Christ’s ascension, world history has been a mopping-up operation. The Church Militant, so long as she is the Church Obedient, will be the Church Triumphant as well. Zion and Daughter of Zion (cf. Ps. 9:11, 14; Cant. 3:11) and children of Zion (cf. ps. 149:2).12:17
    The Book of Revelation is a Covenant document. It is a prophecy, like the prophecies of the Old Testament.This means that it is not concerned with making “predictions” of astonishing events as such. As prophecy, its focus is redemptive and ethical. Its concern is with the Covenant. The Bible is God’srevelation about His Covenant with His people. It was written to show what God has done to save His people and glorify Himself through them.
    Therefore, when God speaks of the Roman Empire in the Book of Revelation, His purpose is not to tell ustitillating bits of gossip about life at Nero’s court. He speaks of Rome only in relation to the Covenant and the history of redemption. “We should keep in
    mind that in all this prophetic symbolism we have before us the Roman empire as a persecuting power. This Apocalypse is not concerned with the history of Rome.
    . . . The Beast is not a symbol of Rome, but of the great Roman world-power, conceived as the organ of the old
    serpent, the Devil, to persecute the scattered saints of God.”1 The most important fact about Rome, from the
    viewpoint of Revelation, is not that it is a powerful state, but that it is Beast, in opposition to the God of
    the Covenant; the issue is not essentially political but religious (cf. comments on 11:7). The Roman Empire is
    not seen in terms of itself, but solely in terms of 1) theLand (Israel), and 2) the Church.
    The Beast from the Sea (13:1-10)
    1 And I was stationed on the sand of the sea. And I saw a Beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and onhis heads were blasphemous names.
    2 And the Beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth
    of a lion. And the Dragon gave him his power and his throne and his great authority.
    3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been smitten to death, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole
    Land wondered after the Beast;
    4 and they worshiped the Dragon, because he gave his authority to the Beast; and they worshiped the Beast,
    saying: Who is like the Beast, and who is able to wage war with him?
    5 And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and authority to make war for
    forty-two months was given to him.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His Name and His Tabernacle, those who
    tabernacle in heaven.
    7 And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and
    people and tongue and nation was given to him.
    8 And all who dwell on the Land will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the
    foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain.
    9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
    10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be
    killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of thesaints.
    1-2 St. John tells us that, just as he had ascended to God’s Throneroom in order to behold the heavenly
    world (4:1; cf. Ezek. 3:14; 8:3), the Spirit now stationed him on the sand of the sea, the vantage point from
    which he is able to view the Beast coming up out ofthe sea. In a visual, dramatic sense, the mighty Roman
    Empire did seem to arise out of the sea, from the Italian peninsula across the ocean from the Land. More than
    this, however, the Biblical symbolism of the sea is in view here. The sea is, as we saw in 9:1-3, associated
    with the Abyss, the abode of the demons, who were imprisoned there after having been expelled from the
    Garden. The Abyss is the “Deep” of Genesis 1:2,“without form and void,” uninhabitable by man. It is
    away from the dry land of human environment, and is the place where the demons are kept imprisoned as
    long as men are faithful to God. When men apostatize, the demons are released; as man is progressively
    restored, the evil spirits are sent back into the Abyss (Luke 8:26-33). Here we see the ultimate source of the
    “beastliness” of the Beast: In essence, he comes from the sea, from the chaotic deep-and-darkness of the
    Abyss, which had to be conquered, formed, and filled by the light of the Spirit (Gen. 1:2; John 1:5). This is
    not to suggest that there was any real conflict between
    God and His creation; in the beginning, everything was “very good.” The sea is most fundamentally an image of
    life. But after the Fall, the picture of the raging deep is used and developed in Scripture as a symbol of the
    world in chaos through the rebellion of men and nations against God: “The wicked are like the tossing
    sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up refuse and mud” (Isa. 57:20; cf. Isa. 17: 12). St. John is told
    later that “the waters which you saw . . . are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues” (17: 15). Out of
    this chaotic, rebellious mass of humanity emerged Rome, an entire empire founded on the premise of
    opposition to God.
    The Beast has ten horns and seven heads, a mirrorimage (cf. Gen. 1:26) of the Dragon (12:3), who gives
    the Beast his power and his throne and great authority. The ten crowned horns (powers)2 of the
    Beast are explained in 17:12 in terms of the governors

    david chilton
     
    #7 Iconoclast, Jul 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2012
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I would not call it a good commentary for the simple reason that the basis for that interpretation, dispensationalism, is incorrect!
     
  9. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,204
    Likes Received:
    611
    Would someone please explain the water?

    The serpent spews water out of his mouth in an attempt to have the woman carried away, but the earth opens up and swallows the water.
     
    #9 InTheLight, Jul 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2012
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    post 7 David Chilton from the days of vengenance offers on it.
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    One thing is certain; it is not literal water any more than the dragon is a literal dragon. Neither does the woman have literal wings. If the woman were literal and had literal wings literal water could have no affect, could it?

    As I noted in an earlier post I believe the woman now represents the Church. For the Church the wilderness is the world. Yet the wilderness is a place of safety for the Church. How can the ungodly world provide safety for the Church? [Keep in mind that we are discussing the Church, not the individual believer.] As long as local churches [whose true believers constitute the Church] are separate from the world they are a witness of the salvation of God to the unbelieving world. Individual Christians may perish but God will add daily to the Church those who are being saved out of the wilderness. Neither Satan nor the gates of hell will prevail against the Church [Matthew 16:18] and the Lord Jesus Christ will find faith when He returns [Luke 18:8]. Ray Frank Robbins,a former professor at the New Orleans Baptist Seminary, in Revelation: Three Viewpoints page 203, presents an interesting analysis of the preservation of the Church, as follows:

    So when the dragon was thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman, that is, the church. But the church is now protected. She was given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness. The wilderness now is the place of protection, the place on the way to, but not yet in, where she is to be nourished for time and times and half a time. What is that? It is forty-two months or three and a half years. This is the time between the first coming and the Second Coming of our Lord. In the wilderness, that is in the world now, on the way to, but not yet complete, the serpent poured out water like a river after the woman. Satan is trying to destroy her, but the earth swallows up the river. This is a beautiful figure which seems to indicate that the efforts of Satan to destroy the church becomes a way of protecting the church. The early Christians, in fact, every member of the church was at one time a member of the world. As one church father said, the blood of the martyrs became the seed of the church. So it seems here that in the world as Satan tries to destroy through his agents, through evil people, these evil people become saved. They actually protect and become the church. There is a strange condition in which it seems that the thing that is trying to destroy the church actually saves the church, because every member of the church was at one time hostile to and antagonistic to the church. So this river that the dragon tries to drown the church with sinks down and protects the church. But the earth came to the help of the woman. The earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which poured, out of his mouth. The male child was saved and now the church is being protected.​
     
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,204
    Likes Received:
    611
    Agreed.

    This I can't agree with. It's too convoluted. So what does the earth symbolize? The gospel?
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    Rev 12 is a picture story snapshot in time of Gen 3:15 in progress.

    The enmity of the Serpent is made manifest through the kings/kingdoms/epochs of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the ten Germanic tribes of the Holy Roman Empire.

    The Woman is the same woman of Gal 4:26, Isa 54:1, and Ps 87, 'the mother of us all', and is made manifest through all of her born from above children, Jew and Gentile, Old and New Covenants.
     
    #13 kyredneck, Jul 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 24, 2012
  14. reformed_baptist

    reformed_baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    the women is given wings to escape the dragon, but the dragon is not so easily put off, he spews out water after her. These are the ongoing attacks of the devil on the church. But the church is protected, the earth itself opens up and swallows the water.
     
  15. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    Maybe the biggest issue with Revelation and so-called "literal" interpretations is that they actually aren't literal and can't reasonably be literal.

    You've got imagery that doesn't make sense ontologically and seems to defy anything we've found in creation. Many of the numbers are clearly symbolic. Underlying this whole thing is a strongly Jewish apocalyptic form which probably best explains the imagery.

    In this instance, that is the OP, it exists within a vision of a scene that is removed from terresterial contemplation and carries imagery and language which are highly charged to draw Jewish interpretation. John almost goes out of his way here, and plenty of other places, to note that this isn't a "literal" understanding but should be considered in the broader context of the apocalyptic images within the entire book.
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    :thumbsup: God has always saved and provided the way of escape during times of tribulation for the Woman, here's a [very] few examples:

    First head Egypt:

    28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, even all the host of Pharaoh that went in after them into the sea; there remained not so much as one of them.
    29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
    30 Thus Jehovah saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea-shore. Ex 14

    Second head Assyria:

    20 And Hezekiah the king, and Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz, prayed because of this, and cried to heaven.
    21 And Jehovah sent an angel, who cut off all the mighty men of valor, and the leaders and captains, in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth from his own bowels slew him there with the sword.
    22 Thus Jehovah saved Hezekiah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem from the hand of Sennacherib the king of Assyria, and from the hand of all others, and guided them on every side. 2 Chr 32

    Third head Babylon:

    48 Then the king made Daniel great, and gave him many great gifts, and made him to rule over the whole province of Babylon, and to be chief governor over all the wise men of Babylon. Dan 2

    30 Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the province of Babylon. Dan 3

    Fourth head Persia:

    3 For Mordecai the Jew was next unto king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the good of his people, and speaking peace to all his seed. Esther 10

    Fifth head Greece:

    I've no doubt that God raised the Maccabees to stay the madness of Antiochus Epiphanes.

    Sixth head Rome:

    13 Now when they were departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I tell thee: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. Mt 2

    Seventh head Teutons:

    In Daniel 2 it was foretold that in the latter days 'a stone' [Christ] was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon its feet that were of iron and clay [Roman Empire], and brake them in pieces. Two feet, ten toes; read Eastern and Western Roman Empire and the ten Germanic tribes, the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards. Rome was first ruled by the Caesars and later by the Germanic tribes. These are also the ten horns of the seventh head of Revelation and the ten horns of the fourth beast of Daniel. These ten kings were to make war with the Lamb (His Church), and to hate the Harlot (Rev 17 apostate Judaism), eat her flesh, and burn her with fire (see Lev 26 & Dt 28, Hitler would probably be the personification of one of these horns).
     
    #16 kyredneck, Jul 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 24, 2012
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    Would you be in agreement with the historical framework laid out in post #16?

    [edit to add] I'm told that one of my primary sources of this framework, Dr. Overby, was a Premillenial Historicist, but I'm unable to verify this.
     
    #17 kyredneck, Jul 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 24, 2012
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    isreal gave birth to her messiah, and the Devil will in the end of days try to destroy the people of the land, but the Lord will grant them refuge at that time!
     
  19. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    The water or flood simply represents a great army that will cover the land. And just as Pharaoh's army was swallowed up when the Red Sea collapsed on them, the great army that pursues the remnant Jews who flee Jerusalem though the great valley created when the mount of Olives splits in half will be consumed, though they will be consumed by fire. In fact, their destruction sounds very similar to a nuclear explosion.

    The folks who say this happened in 70 A.D. are in error. The Lord will come to defend Jerusalem, not destroy it.

    Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    Only one third of the Jews shall survive.

    Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
    9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    The armies that come against Jerusalem will be consumed while they stand on their feet.

    Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

    This actually sounds like what happens with an atomic bomb. Not saying that is what is going to happen, but the Lord will consume this army with great heat.

    I used to believe that Revelations 12 was speaking of the Lord coming after the tribulation, but now I believe this may be speaking of Satan going out to deceive the nations after the millennium. It is difficult for me to believe that Israel would live in unwalled cities after just 7 years, but they would after a thousand.

    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    So, Revelation 12 and Zechariah may be speaking of the time after the millennium, when Satan shall be released to deceive all the nations and bring them against Jerusalem.

    Sorry, for the long post, but the flood of waters simply represents a great army that shall come against Israel and Jerusalem.
     
    #19 Winman, Jul 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 24, 2012
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    this posting answers the full pretierists fully, as they fail to realise God will be coming to Save isreal at that time, NOT destroy her as they see in ad 70!

    ONLY way they can get their stance is to really force fed isreal means church in NT, jews reads christians now!
     

Share This Page

Loading...