Please Give Bible That faith is Inherit within us!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Oct 14, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    As many times we are asked to provide Bible for faith being a gift to us from God, what verses support faith resides in all of us "naturally?"
     
  2. matt wade

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    And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

    But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

    Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

    Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
     
  3. Winman

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    Mark 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

    Why would Jesus MARVEL at unbelief if it is a gift? Did Jesus forget these people had not been given faith? This verse implies Jesus expected these persons to believe. How could he expect people to have belief if they have no ability to do so?

    Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said unto them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    If faith is a gift, why did Jesus marvel at the centurion's great faith? Did he forget that faith had been given to the centurion?

    Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

    How could Jesus say such a thing if Calvinism is true? There is no "if" concerning faith in Calvinism, if you are not regenerated you cannot possibly believe, if you are regenerated you cannot possibly not believe. There is no middle ground or grey area in Calvinism, there is no "if" concerning faith.
     
  4. InTheLight

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    Matt 8:10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!
    [...]
    13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.!

    Matt 9:20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.

    Matt 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

    Mark 2:4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.
    5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

    Mark 10:52 Then Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.

    Luke 7:49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
    50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

    Luke 18:8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

    Acts 14:8 And in Lystra a certain man without strength in his feet was sitting, a cripple from his mother’s womb, who had never walked. 9 This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, 10 said with a loud voice, “Stand up straight on your feet!” And he leaped and walked.
     
  5. Deacon

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    Acts 14:16–17 (ESV)
    In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.”

    Acts 17:24–28 (ESV)
    And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him.

    Romans 1:18–20 (ESV)
    For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
     
  6. Greektim

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    Jesus can marvel at unbelief (don't make the literary meaning make a theological point that was never intended) the same way I cannot believe you are using these passages as prooftext. Yet again literary criticism would tell us that this is an expression that is not necessarily making a theological point. I think it is just as correct to say that God would marvel at their faith even though he knew they wouldn't believe. The marvel is not that they had the ability to believe but wouldn't. The marvel ("unbelievable" expression) is that it was so obvious and yet they blew it. In one sense, it is quite sad how lost and stupid we as sinners are/were. In another, it absolutely makes sense that we are so ignorant to what seems so obvious after conversion.

    Similar with a parable is also similar w/ narrative statements... you don't make it walk on all fours. Don't read too much into expressions like that. Jesus was a human who had human expressions and experiences like shock. Yes, the omniscient God-man who in one sense knew it beforehand in another sense was shocked. The joys of the paradoxical hypostatic union.

    I think it would also serve you well to study the Grk word for "marvel" and understand the entire semantic range of the word. It has a contemplative sense as well.

    Lastly, all of the above verses (provided I didn't miss one) were only verses of implication (and poor ones at that). They were not explicit in saying faith in Jesus is an inherent ability of all humans. I would love to see a more explicit passage.
     
    #6 Greektim, Oct 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2011
  7. Winman

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    I get a real chuckle when folks accuse me of taking the scriptures as literal, as though this is some sort of error!

    I know the scriptures are not always literal, as when Jesus spoke of drinking his blood and eating his flesh. That is easy to identify as figurative, because it would not make sense if literal. But if the plain understanding of scripture makes sense, it should always be taken literally.

    And I get a kick out of your statement of the joys of a paradox. You joy in logical contradictions!

    These are the folks that criticize others and tell us we do not understand scripture, the folks who claim that contradictions are true!

    I was born at night (I really was), but it wasn't last night.

    I believe what the scriptures plainly say, he marvelled at his fellow countrymen's unbelief, and he marvelled at the centurion's great faith. God is not confused, he knows how to properly express himself and say what he means. Neither of these verses makes sense if faith is a gift.

    Faith is a gift in the sense that if God had not revealed Jesus to us, then we could not possibly believe in Jesus. (Rom 10:14) But all men have the ability and free will to either believe God's word, or reject it.

    And I could also demand a more explicit statement from scripture that faith is a gift from you. Several here have shown much scripture to support that all people have inherent faith, far more evidence than those who claim it is a gift. You have two controversial verses, we have dozens that are not controversial. Jesus himself said "your faith" or "thy faith" or "their faith" many times, showing people were expressing their own faith.
     
  8. convicted1

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    Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.


    Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


    Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as [/B]God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.[/B]


    Sure looks like faith is a gift. Now, if those who believe that faith is inherent, as long as you say that is comes from God, then we are closer than I first thought.

    But man of his own volition, will not believe without God first revealing Himself to that lost person.
     
  9. Winman

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    Willis, Romans 10:14,17 shows faith comes by HEARING the word of God. God gives the word, we HEAR. Those who refuse to listen will have no faith.

    Now, imagine Jesus told you that he gave you power to cast out devils as he did the apostles. You might be a little reluctant to believe and have some doubts. Now they bring someone possessed to you, and you decide to trust what Jesus said and command the devils come out. To your amazement the devil does come out and the person is healed. Would you have more faith? YES. They bring you another possessed person and again you are successful. Would your faith be increased? YES.

    But what if they brought you another and you could not at first cast the devil out? Would you doubt? YES.

    This is what happened with the boy who could not be healed, the apostles began to doubt, and Jesus rebuked them for unbelief. They should have believed Jesus and prayed more, then they would have succeeded. They gave up too easily.
     
  10. convicted1

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    Well Brother Winman, those verses ring true. However, if God doesn't reveal Himself to a lost person during the Word being preached in power, then those words will just fly by his/her's head. Mankind must listen much deeper than with the ears we use to hold our glasses on, but rather, with the ears of the "inner man". That is the spirit in man, that God gives understanding to, and not the fleshly man that we see in a mirror.

    But you see, the power to do these things must, first and foremost, come from God. The power to heal someone who is sick comes from God through our prayers.


    But Jesus went on and told them that this demon could not be cast out but by prayer and fasting, correct?? So they must not have been fasting, I guess.....I could be wrong on this assumption, and please correct me if I am wrong.

    Here's the dilemma. Faith either comes from God, or it is conjured up by us. There is no other solution to this. I do not believe one can go to the Keebler tree, and get faith with "Elfin magic", either. I do believe faith comes from God.
     
  11. mandym

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    In this passage the promise is what is given not faith.
     
  12. Winman

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    In response to Willis' post #10.

    Denying that men have the ability to believe is like denying you have a nose, it is obvious. You use faith and trust every day. There are some folks you trust, like your parents or spouse. Why? Because you know they love you and have proven themselves worthy of trust. There are some folks you do not trust. Why? Because perhaps they have lied to you, or stolen from you. Faith is not some magical force, faith is a judgment based on knowledge and experience.

    Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

    As you see, Sara's faith was a judgment, she believed God was honest and would fulfill his promise to her.

    As for the apostles, Jesus had given them power to cast out devils, but they had to believe. They cast out devils, and with each success their faith was encouraged. But when they could not cast the devil out of the boy, they began to doubt. They quickly forgot the past success God had given them. Sometimes God will allow our faith to be tested. If they had continued to believe and prayed and fasted, they could have cast out the devil.

    So, the power to cast out devils came from Jesus, but the apostles had to believe Jesus to have access to this power.

    Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    These verses do not make sense if faith is a gift. God has promised to give wisdom to any man who asks, but the man must believe.
     
    #12 Winman, Oct 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2011

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