Point of Interest

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by GraceSaves, Jun 8, 2003.

  1. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    I was just perusing one of the Baptist Only boards, and I thought I'd post this, since it interested me (since I cannot post there):

    "As a kid, I loved the Chronicles of Narnia, by C.S. Lewis, who was a Christian. In my teens, I loved J.R.R. Tolkien, also a Christian (and a good friend of Lewis)."

    J.R.R. Tolkien was a Catholic. This Baptist says that J.R.R. Tolkien is a Christian, thus admitting that faithful Catholics are Christians. I only say that this is interesting because I've come across many who seem to think contrary, and yet are also Baptists.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  2. Don

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    We never said there weren't Christians in the Catholic church.

    We only said they haven't found a Baptist church yet.... [​IMG]
     
  3. GraceSaves

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    Don,

    Thanks for the honest response. ;) I guess what I mean to say is that I hardly believe that the person who wrote this knew all the personal beliefs of J.R.R. Tolkien enough to know if he was "Christian" other than the fact that he professed that he was, and was friends with C.S. Lewis. And, of course, he was a professed Catholic, even calling The Lord of the Rings "a Catholic work." So, I guess my point is that those who believe that the Church is the "whore of Babylon" would not consider such a man to be Christian.

    Again, I just found it a bit amusing to see the difference in Baptist opinions on Catholics. Not trying to stir up any trouble!

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  4. Kathryn

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    Grant:

    When the movie Lord of the Rings first came out, Tolkien was being discussed on another thread that was open to all Christians. Many were saying how they loved his work, reading all his books, and how he was a Christian, etc. When I pointed out how he was a devout Catholic, it killed the conversation. They dropped it like a hot potato. They see the fruit of people they respect and find out they are Catholic, and it is like cooties. Dr. Bob here quoted some insightful wisdom from Chesterton on another thread, and someone set him straight that he was Catholic. That killed that. Oh, well.

    God Bless
     
  5. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    Would it also be "amusing" for you to hear that some Catholics think only Catholics are Christians while others think that Protestants are Christian too? I honestly fail to see any point in your post.
     
  6. Kathryn

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    I would point out Church teaching to any Catholic who believed only Catholics were Christian. I would show them the Catechism.
     
  7. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    Under this teaching of the Catholic Catechism, would Arians (such as the so-called Jehovah's Witnesses) be considered Christian? I know of one whom the RCC would call Catholic, but who did not refer to himself by such a word, who would disagree, but he's been dead for centuries. Anyway, he would say that in the very fact that the Arians call themselves Arians rather than Christians they admit that they are not Christians. I find this idea very interesting. In fact, it must be added that this individual did not apply the term "Catholic" to himself, but applied the term "Catholic" only to the church, calling himself a "Christian" only. And, that makes sense, seeing as how he said that those who call themselves by any name other than Christian prove themselves to not be Christians. This, of course, was Athanasius: http://ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-04/Npnf2-04-57.htm#P5255_2056234

    Athanasius said "those who call these men [the Arians] Christians are in great and grievous error, as neither having studied Scripture, nor understanding Christianity at all, and the faith which it contains." He goes on to say:

    [ June 09, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  8. Kathryn

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    If a group denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church would not considers them a Christian group even if they call themselves Christian. The closest comparison I can think of is the Mormons. I know their baptism would not be considered a valid baptism. Confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord, God, Savior and Redeemer, is essential. I think you would understand that.

    God Bless
     
  9. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    That is certainly understandable. BUT, who's to draw the difference between those who don't believe that Jesus is God and those who reject baptism? Are they not both alike heretics? The one cult sends people to hell for disbelief, but the other although allowing it's members to believe in Jesus, closes the entrance to the covenant to them. If a person never enters into the covenant, does the RCC call them Christian? Or does the Catechism say that Protestants are Christian based on their baptism? If baptism is required, probably 75% of professed Protestants just lost their Christian status in the RCC's eyes.

    Regardless of what the RCC says, not everyone who believes in Jesus as God and is baptized is a Christian - one must be baptized with "faith in the operation of God" not just faith "in God" - that is, they must believe the fact that God remits sins in baptism as Peter taught. (Acts 2:38) That rules out the Baptists! To them, baptism is just a symbol of stuff that God already did - they have no faith in the operation of God when they are baptized - they don't believe that He does anything in baptism. This also rules out at least 90% of Catholics, since most of them are sprinkled as infants, before they have faith in anything at all!

    So, what Protestants are left after that? What Catholics are left?

    Of course we could go on to mention that baptism is immersion, which rules out another huge number of Catholics and Protestants who were sprinkled not baptized, etc, etc.

    [ June 09, 2003, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  10. Yelsew

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    Would it surprise you to learn that being a member of "The Body of Christ" does not qualify you to be a member of "the BRIDE OF CHRIST"?

    It doesn't even matter to most "Body of Christ" congregations that many that they admit into membership are not part of the "Bride of Christ".

    So one can be Catholic and not be Christian. One can be Christian and not be Catholic. Now substitute the name of any denomination for the word Catholic, and you get the picture.

    The "Body of Christ" is identified by many denominational names. "The Bride of Christ" has only one name, "Christian". "The Bride" is Devoted to and dearly loved by the Christ.

    "The Body" is susceptable to various winds of doctrine, hence denominationalism. "The bride of Christ" has only one doctrine, Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah; and one testimony, "I believe in Jesus with all my heart, soul, and mind."
     
  11. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    There is one faith & one baptism according to Eph 4:5. In order for your idea that there are Christians in all denominations to work there would have to be many faiths & many baptisms.

    No. Heb 10:26-7

    I agree. Catholics aren't Christians and Christians aren't Catholics - Catholics are Catholics and Christians are Christians. And, you can substitute any denominational name for Catholic there. Those who call themselves anything other than Christian prove they are not Christian, just as Athanasius said. If they were Christians they would be content with the Lord's name and not seek another.

    Wrong! Denominations are identified by denominational names. The body of Christ is identified by Christ's name and true doctrine.

    The Bride of Christ and Body of Christ are the same thing - the church, so they both have the same name. When you said that one can be in the Body and yet not in the Bride, you were correct, because it is possible to be taken out of the Body before it is presented to Christ as the Bride as we find in Mt 13:41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend..." Even so, the Bride and Body are the same thing, and has many Scriptural names: Church of God, Church of Christ, Church of the Living God, etc.

    As is the Body (which is the same as the Bride); "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
    " Eph 5:29

    You cannot separate the Body and the Bride - they are the same. The only discernable difference being that the church is not yet presented as the Bride, and before it is, all those who offend will be removed (including those tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine). Whatever doctrine was taught by the apostles is the doctrine of the Body and the Bride (both these being descriptions of the ONE church that Jesus built Mt 16:18), so there is more than one doctrine - don't be rediculous!

    [ June 09, 2003, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  12. Kathryn

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    To be a heretic in the eyes of the Church, this person would have to be a Catholic who decided to teach that baptism was not necessary for salvation. A Mormon is not a heretic. They are simply a Mormon and have false teachings.
    Jesus Christ does the judging of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, who are His brother's and sisters. Scripture tells us that His brothers and sisters, are those who do the will of the Father.

    Jesus gave the Church the commission to go out and baptize all nations, in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. From non-Catholics, she recognizes any baptism using this formula that Jesus commanded. She doesn't endorse or condemn who is who in the eyes of God.
     
  13. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    I'm almost inclined to believe that, but then again, the RCC would have to say that only Arius and those who left the Catholic Church with him were heretics and those he converted from heathenism to Arianism were not, and I doubt the RCC says that.
     
  14. Kathryn

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    Believe what you want. You are not a heretic.

    God Bless
     
  15. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    Well, anyway, my point was that some Catholics see it one way and others another. Your point that those that see it a particular way are not in agreement with the RCC's official teaching. So, your right and I am too I guess. No point in arguing.
     
  16. MikeS

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    I have to share this! When I went to hear author Joseph Pearce speak last month they had sample copies of one of his ventures, the "Saint Austin Review," a Catholic literary journal. The issue they had available was Jan/Feb 2003, focusing on Tolkien. Here's a great quote from one of the articles:

    "When I gave a talk on "The Heroism of Hobbits" recently, I was surprised to find a high proportion of "pagans" and "druids" turning up to listen - but not as surprised as they were, to find their hero was a daily communicant at the Catholic Mass."

    Is that a delicious image or what? [​IMG]
     
  17. neal4christ

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    :rolleyes: Great, now I am not a Christian because I am a member of a Baptist church. Could you point me to a verse that says you have to use only the word 'Christian' to identify yourself? Thanks.

    Neal
     
  18. neal4christ

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    I must admit, there was a time that I was suprised whenever I found out the affiliation of people I liked. Taught me to not stereotype or judge books by their covers! [​IMG]

    Neal

    P.S. I didn't know Tolkien was a Catholic. I just always heard him labeled as a Christian.
     
  19. Ps104_33

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    Malachai Martin is Catholic too. Would you recommend his books and brag about his Faith in the Church? How about Thomas Merton.

    Malichai Martin
    Cs Lewis
    Tolkien
    Merton

    What do all these authors have in common?
     
  20. GraceSaves

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    I am unfamiliar with Martin, but I don't know what is wrong with Thomas Merton. I haven't heard anything bad about his writings. Sharing some insight would be helpful.

    Further, that is irrelevant. Tolkien WAS a Catholic, and a faithful Catholic. The whole argument is that he was called a "Christian" by a Baptist, when many on this board do not consider "faithful Catholics" to be Christian.

    God bless,

    Grant
     

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