Pole: Who here believes Israel and the Church are one and the same?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Bob Hope, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. Bob Hope

    Bob Hope
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    I am looking for a yes or no response.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Romans 9-11 is Paul's treatise in regard to the Abrahamic promise and future salvation of Israel. Not once does he use the word "church" in this treatise. Israel is consistently contrasted to the term "gentiles" throughout these scriptures showing that it is an ETHNIC contrast.
     
  3. Bob Hope

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    No its not.
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    Ok, then you find me the word "church" ever used in this context! Romans 9-11 is the longest and greatest treatise in the New Testament on Israel, the promises and future of Israel and yet the term "church" cannot be found in this context.
     
  5. Bob Hope

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    Revelation 22:14-17



    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



    Revelation 3:12

    12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.



    Ezekiel 37:11-14

    Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (reference Revelation 3:12)
    And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
    And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

    Ezekiel 37:23
    Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
    Ezekiel 37:26-28
    Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.(Revelation 7:14-17, *Revelation 21:3*)


    Isaiah 56:5-7


    5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

    6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

    7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.



    Galatians 3:29
    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


    Romans 8:17
    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Romans 4:14
    For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:


    We are adopted by Christ and are children of the same promise.


    Galatians 4:5
    To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


    Ephesians 1:5
    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    No...............
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    Sooooo, you could not find the word "church" in Romans 9-11? So you had to selectively pick texts and then SPIRITUALIZE them to support your theory.

    Here is a clue, the very same salvation for gentiles is the very same salvation for Jews and thus the future salvation of Israel as a nation in Romans 11:25-28 is based upon election as well. Hence, using texts that teach salvation is by election does not prove your point.
     
  8. Bob Hope

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    Yes it does.
     
  9. kyredneck

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    YES

    15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

    The true Church is comprised only of those who are born from above, the heavenly Jerusalem which is our mother, the children of the heavenly Zion.

    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
    29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2
     
    #9 kyredneck, Nov 5, 2012
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  10. Bob Hope

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    So does a half Israelite get half the promise? If a jew is an Israelite please explain Esther 8:17.




    Esther 8:17


    17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.



    Jew is a religous term and it means one who followed the law.
     
  11. Bob Hope

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    Thanks for having eyes to see.
     
  12. kyredneck

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    for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3:3
     
  13. Bob Hope

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    Amen to that. There are numerous mentions of it. We need to be in the Spirit to see it.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    I pray that God will give you all the grace to see the very clear difference between the church and Israel.
     
  15. kyredneck

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    Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might led. 1 Cor 12:2

    If they're no longer Gentiles they are __________________ (fill in the blank)
     
  16. Bob Hope

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    Would Paul be apart of the church or Israel?
     
  17. Revmitchell

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    Since God has not elected you to understand the truth of the matter no answer will convince you. May God give you the grace to receive the truth.
     
  18. kyredneck

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    God has made it very clear that there is NO DISTINCTION between the two. Most of the context of the epistle to the Galatian Churches was all about refuting the efforts of the Judaizers, and clearly Paul was letting these Churches know that THEY were the 'Israel of God', just as he was in the epistle to the Saints at Phillippi (Phil 3:3).

    You're insisting on the distinction of two entities where the scriptures plainly say there's only one:

    14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
    15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

    And that God makes no distinction:

    And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

    and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

    even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

    For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

    For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

    where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

    There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

    For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

    15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6
     
  19. Bob Hope

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    It is not a question you are capable of anwsering.
     
  20. Revmitchell

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    Hehe I'm just messing with you guys. If you all want to believe in covenant theology then go for it. People will still get saved and life will go on. The focus on this issue is often taken to extreme levels and it changes nothing.

    By the way I answered your question. You said you were looking for an yes or no answer. I did that. To take it farther than that is to go outside the op. Quite frankly I found your op quite disingenuous and now you have proved it.
     

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