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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Jul 20, 2003.
4 questions for Baptists Only concerning Catholicism.
After studying Romanism, I can only conclude that it is a cult. Oh, they believe in the divinity of Christ and the virgin birth (obviously). But Pilate did ask a very important question: "What shall I do then with Jesus who is called Christ?"
What they do to Him, it occurs to me, is to put Him in second place behind Mary. In fact, if I understand correctly, you need Mary to save you from Jesus, because He is the Judge. Mary is co-redemtrix and co-mediatrix. Statues of Jesus, Mary, and the saints and to be had in the church and are to be shown due adoration and worship.(!)
Then you add Mass, the confessional, purgatory, Church sacraments and traditions, a continuing distain for the Bible. Well, they might as well be in the Mormon Church. Clearly they have "Another" Gospel and in dire need of the true Jesus as their only hope for heaven.
I believe it is harder to witness to RCs than almost any other religion.
It is harder to witness to a 'good' man, than a 'bad' man.
You first have to convince a 'good' man that he is 'bad' and on his way to Hell.
Most RCs are 'good' people. We must continue to witness to them. If they ARE truly saved, our witness will not offend them. If they are NOT truly saved, they need to hear what we have to say.
It greatly saddens me to see a Baptist, defending the RCC in a Baptist Forum.
The problem is that most Baptists have wrong ideas and misconception about what Catholics really believe. Often, Baptists are opposing only what they *think* is going on. Archbishop Sheen once said "There are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church; But there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be." I am finding that this is generally true. You may find it sad that there are Baptists that defend Catholics, but I find it sad that there are Baptists who are more interested in spreading and believing falsehoods (even if well-intentioned) than simply verifying things for themselves. As Christians, truth should be more important than feeling superior.
Good point. We can't assume something is Christian because it has "crosses." I believe a few RCC are saved because of their trust in Jesus alone for salvation. However, I think most miss the message of Gospel because of the RCC's official teaching of a "works and faith gospel".
I would like to add that it makes me sadder to see Baptist claim that they are born again (saved) buy they show no evidence of it. They point to back in time to a "decision" they made as evidence that they are in the "book of life."
"I would like to add that it makes me sadder to see Baptist claim that they are born again (saved) buy they show no evidence of it."
Hold the phone! Where did you see this post? We should have a talk with this person about the fruits of the Spirit.
Question 4 of the poll is too vague. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes maybe. Depends on the term. Often, disagreement between Baptists and Catholics are due to Baptists thinking Catholics are using a different meaning for a term than they actually are.
Brian: I am not one of the Baptists who is more interested in spreading and believing falsehoods than simply verifying things for themselves. I have verified what I believe the RCC believes and teaches. As I stated before, most of my family members are RC and I was raised RC as well as attending a RC school.
I see nothing to feel superior about. I did not save myself. Jesus Christ saved me and to Him goes all the honor and glory. I am just trying to get my RC relatives to see this.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It really is as simple as that. We often try to make it more complex.
We can go on and witness to the truth of God's word, and attempt to bring someone along this path, but we cannot take away the first step; belief in Jesus as Saviour.
We almost put ourselves in the same book as many cults and other religions. Salvation equals belief in Jesus, plus this or the other. That is growth, not initial conversion.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It really is as simple as that.
Is it though? A family member on my fiance's side once told me that he was a Christian, that he had knelt and accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, and trusted in him. He also believes in the Bible.
However, he is in his second marriage and is currently committing adultry again. He abuses his son, and does many other things so horrifying they do not bear repeating to anyone. Really...its sick.
Is he saved?
Sue, do Catholics believe Jesus is the Christ (yes or no)?
Do Catholics Jesus is the Son of God (yes or no)?
Do Catholics believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins (yes or no)?
Are Catholics repentant of their sin (yes or no)?
Do Catholics believe Jesus physically rose from the dead (yes or no)?
I'm sorry if you perceive question 4 as "vague" but I have been working with a dear RC friend who keeps using terms like "grace", "born again", "trust Christ" and "christian" and when I asked him to define them, BINGO - I found a major problem.
THESE ARE NOT MY BAPTIST MISCONCEPTIONS but the result of visiting with Hank (my friend):
Born again was when he was baptized/christened.
God's grace and salvation comes when he receives Christ as Savior in the Eucharist at Mass.
Anyone who believes Jesus was God's Son, died and rose again is a christian.
Anyone with faith will probably end up in purgatory (and hopefully heaven some day) even if their faith is islam, hindu, buddhist.
Tradition is not only AS valid as Scripture, it is MORE valid as it interprets and explains Scripture.
We have another mutual friend who is Mormon and I have found this problem of "new definitions" to be exponentially magnified by my RC friend who is using HIS own set of religious definitions. Confusion reigns.
Your friend Hank is probably not the defining standard of Catholics, just as you are not the defining standard of Baptists.
The reason I said #4 was vague, is because the question doesn't allow for multiple answers. Sure, maybe "born again" carries a different meaning. But "Trinity" doesn't (or shouldn't! Some Baptists have their own definition of this term). "Resurrection" doesn't have a different meaning. "Virgin birth" doesn't have a different meaning. Etc. That's all I meant.
I wouldn’t say “most”… I think there are a significant number of Roman Catholics who truly know Christ.
For the record, I have no confidence that most “Baptists” are truly born again.
Yes. I think the Roman Catholic system is a corrupted form of Christianity – in some places much better, in some places much, much worse – and that there is no hope for salvation through the sacraments and priesthood of the Roman Catholic church.
Roman Catholics who truly cast themselves on the mercy of Christ (just like the rest of us) will be saved by and through Christ.
Sometimes there are different meanings and ideas associated with Christian lingo. Of course that occurs between Protestant denominations as well.
I did not vote in this poll because answering the questions with a simple yes or no would not accurately convey my belief.
Having said that, let me say I do think there are Catholics who are born again. But I do not think they got born again through the message or ministry of the Catholic church. For one thing, the Lord never commissioned the Catholic church to do or preach anything and therefore I do not think the Lord is active in it's "ministry."
Furthermore, they preach regeneration through baptism and therefore it is impossible to be saved by believing what they preach. Men are not saved by believing a lie but by believing the truth.
Notwithstanding, it is entirely possible that some Catholic people have at some time in their lives come under the influence of the Lord's ministry and have heard the truth about Christ and believed in and been born again.
There were, according to John's gospel, believers in the Synagogue at Jerusalem who would not confess Christ because they feared being cast out of the Synagogue which had determined to expell any member who confessed that Jesus was the Christ. These people did not believe the official doctrine of the Synagogue but were nonetheless saved because they had heard and believed the truth of Christ.
Likewise, there may be born again Catholics who for any number of reasons maintain their affiliation with the Catholic church. But if a man actually believes the doctrine taught by the Catholic church then he is not born again, because it is impossible to be born again by believing what the Catholic church teaches about regeneration.
Ditto for Campbellites, Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals, or any other group that adds or detracts anything other than bare faith in Jesus Christ as the sole condition of the new birth.
Wrong ideas? Misconceptions?
Roman Catholicism teaches that Mary is an active and significant person in the obtaining and fulfillment of Christian maturity. That Mary is someone we should pray to.
Roman Catholicism teaches that dead saints are active and significant people in the obtaining and fulfillment of Christian maturity. That they are people we should pray to.
Roman Catholicism teaches that Priests have the power to remit sins. At least, they are a link in the chain.
Roman Catholicism teaches that, after you die, they can intercede for you and can finish getting you into heaven.
Roman Catholicism teaches that transsubstaniationalism is real.
Roman Catholicism does not teach that one can get to heaven merely by putting their trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ and relying on what is in the Bible to complete their growth to maturity.
I have no doubt that most Roman Catholics are willingly ignorant of the tremendous detail that is Roman Catholic doctrine and that what they personally believe may be different than what the church leaders espouse, but, they will still be close enough that they are miles away from what the bible teaches. If you don't believe me just express a little doubt about the immaculate conception and see.
I once heard a Priest debating the late Walter Martin and he (the Priest) did an excellent job and came across as a very likable and sincere man, but, "nice" just can't compete with "scriptural".
Most Baptists have the misconception that praying is the same as worshipping, and that Catholics "worship" Mary. This is not true. The word "pray" means simply to ask, to beseech. Look up "pray" in a concordance of the KJV - the very first instance of "pray" is when Abraham "prayed" to his sister.
Again, prayer does not necessarily mean worship.
I think the misconception many Baptist have is that RC priests can "forgive" sins *outside* of God. This isn't the case, they only announce (absolve) the forgiveness of sins, where God still is the one that forgives the sins. But even so, Christ gave his apostles authority to do this in John 20:23.
I don't know much about this. Can you provide specific references (like from the Catechism, etc) so I can read up a little on this?
Yes, they do. They take the scriptures more literally than Baptists do on this issue.
- yes, they believe James 2.
- your comments mention faith in Christ + relying on what is in the Bible. Someone else here (it might have even been you) recently said that faith in Christ + anything is not faith, and is a false gospel. So which is it?
This is likely true. But Baptists are even more ignorant of the tremendous detail that is Roman Catholic doctrine, and thus *will* have many misconceptions about what official doctrine states, which is the whole point of my original comment.
This topic interests me as I was born, raised and educated Roman Catholic. To TRULY be able to compare and contrast RC doctrine to the Scriptures, I would highly advise purchasing a few books...
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
The Documents of Vatican 2 (2 volume set)
The Catholic Study Bible (NAB)
and go from there to decide what is and isn't true.
The first 2 listed above are what started me thinking about Catholicism...and raised enough questions to start me on a journey of searching, reading,researching and studying.
"I don't know much about this. Can you provide specific references (like from the Catechism, etc) so I can read up a little on this?"
Brian, the idea is one I struggle with, and a full answer is best left up to someone like Carson who isn't anti-Catholic.
For a time, priests sold indulagences to get people out of purgatory. Martin Luther attacked this and the priests eventually straightened themselves up.
Basically Catholic thought is that we cannot go before a Holy God while not perfectly Holy. Thus, if we die in a state of grace, we are purified by fire, if there is any sin left on our minds, before we go before God. Purgatory is not a place where Christians are tortured before they get to go to heaven.
It is a preperation to go before God, which the Church doesn't know how long it lasts. It could be seemingly instantaneous.
I'm not so sure about the praying for someone in purgatory thing though. Seems kinda awkward.
If your catachism has a subject index look up indulegances.
Thanks B.S., I'm doing just that. I have all three from your list, and I'm slowly going through them all, cover to cover. Not an easy or fast endeavor.
B.S., what made you leave Catholicism and become a Baptist? What are your thoughts of the Catholic Church in general? Feel free to send me a private message if you don't want to answer here in this thread.
Ah, thanks. Will do. Like you, I struggle (greatly) with the whole concept, but I admit I haven't read any official teachings on the subject.