Poll shows Southern evangelical denominations support torture

The OP was about government torture. If you'd like to talk about other forms of torture, then feel free to start your own thread.

The OP is about government torturing terrorists. Your scenario isn't about that and only serves to derail the thread. Maybe you'd like to open a new thread. Or, maybe you and tiny can keep throwing insults.

Feel free to post your own links to "alleged studies" that show that torture produces good information and is something that Christians should support.

 

To torture your enemy or not. Since Christ said to love your enemies how could professing Christians ever even think of such measures no matter what's a stake. I don't believe the Lord would approve.
MB

 

So it would be OK to torture someone that was raping my wife, but not for the military to do it?

I'll bail out because this thread is another liberal thread intended to discredit our fine military.

 

War is war, and when fighting for survival, not too many folks are going to worry about the golden rule.

Right now my baby brother is over in Iraq fighting to protect the US and the world from terrorists. He won't be home for Thanksgiving, or Christmas. In fact, we don't know if he'll ever come home at all--alive that is. I can't tell you when he last ate a real home cooked meal, or used a pillow, or got a full night's sleep. If he gets captured, you can be sure he'll be tortured in ways the US government would never think of while his own countrymen wring their hands over the enemy's lack of comfort.

So, please pardon me while I turn a deaf ear when the bleeding heart liberals in this country start whining about our treatment of terrorist prisoners who would rape and kill innocent children, and slaughter civilians in non-provoked attacks on US soil. Please excuse me while I turn away in ignorant bliss when they tout the golden rule. We are at war, in case nobody has noticed.

 

It is NOT alright for you to torture such a someone. It is scriptural and your husband-ly duty to KILL him.

My part is from someone who has worked for or with the USGovernment for 34 years and done a Master's Degree level-like study of the subject here: should the government foster torture to obtain information? On my advise as an expert the answer is: NO.

I compare torture to obtain information to drinking sea water to quench your thirst. Sea water has salt & other things in it - more H2O is required for the body to process the salt & other junk than is available in the sea water drunk. If you drink sea water you will die an extremely horrible death of thirst.

Likewise with torture. You can get information, in fact, a tortured person will give you way more information than any intell organization can ever check (and check it one must). Torture is like an Intell sink-hole, and as an Intell black-hole. The secret to good Intell is BRAINS NOT MEAN.

1. According to the experince when Rumania was occupied by the Communicst at the end of WW2 - the mean time a person opeated as a torturer was 26 months. On the average, a person who worked as a data collection agent (torturer) was himself tortured after 26 months. The common method of taking over Eastern European countries and converting them to Commies (Russian Method) was to kill the tortured people when they had 'turned in' several other people. The 'mental clensing' of Rumania lasted from 1944 well into the late 1960s, early 1970s. Well unto 11 generations of torturers were killed off - to protect society.

2. The German 1936-1945 experince was that the torture process denigerates the society by eliminating everyone starting with the most compasionate and understanding to the somewhat compasionate and understanding leaving only the inhuman people.

Yes, torture for data collection is a lousy thing to study. I'll be glad when I'm dead and don't have to study war no more BTW, I'm also an expert on Data Storage. Don't store your favorite data in human minds

 

// If he gets captured, you can be sure he'll be tortured in ways the US government would never think of while his own countrymen wring their hands over the enemy's lack of comfort. //

Thank you soldier/marine for your contribution.

// So, please pardon me while I turn a deaf ear when the bleeding heart liberals in this country start whining about our treatment of terrorist prisoners who would rape and kill innocent children, and slaughter civilians in non-provoked attacks on US soil //

This proves the difference between the enemy and US - we don't torture (be mean) - we work smart. BTW, I've voted for the most Conservative person who was likely to get elected in the last 11 elections - I am NOT liberal, I've studyed the topic. Sorry, most of what I read was pre-computer, so no, I don't have a collection of pointers.

Torture for information is stupid and mean. Even if the scripture said to do it - I will vote for people who won't do it. I was a G.W.Bush (the second Bush) fan for 7 years, until I found reasonable information that his administration was tainted with and corrupted by men without the best interests of the THE MEANING OF AMERICA at heart. This is especially true

Ed's Funk:

The strange things you 'allow' in this general shall be done to your kids in their generation (if the Lord tarries, of Course).

 

Ed said prophetically (and structurally, BTW):

The strange things you 'allow' in this general shall be done to your kids in their generation (if the Lord tarries, of Course).

Mat 16:19 And I will giue vnto thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen, and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde vpon earth, shalbe bound in heauen: and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heauen.

God, please don't let them loosen the American 'spree & rave'. Amen!

The Freedom to 'spree, rave, and torture' is un-scriptural, un-spiritual, un-kind, un-human (aka: inhuman), and un-natural.

 

It seems that most of this thread has been used to justify committing violent acts against other people. All of the terms (violence, retaliation, revenge, etc.) have been used in a very fluid way that clouds their true meaning. MB has raised the correct issue. The real question here is where do you draw the line between your desire to retaliate with violence against someone who has wronged you and your professed Christian faith which calls on you to pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6.27-36)? You can concoct all the scenarios you want, but in this case, all of you who claim to stand unmoved on the Bible as your authority for faith and action have jumped off the wagon if you are trying to justify torture and/or retaliatory violence.

Tim Reynolds

 

If you desire to see it as wrong that is fine but you need to stay intellectually honest and refrain from trying to re-frame the purpose for those tatcis you may want to refer as torture. Cohersive means are not about revenge but about gaining information.

 

Yes, but such a policy puts our soldiers in even more danger. We have the Geneva convention for a reason.

 

There are a number of reasonable arguments against any perceived "torture" but "it will put our troops in danger" and the "Geneva convention" are not one of them.

Terrorists do not hold to the Geneva and neither do they care that we either do or do not "torture" their soldiers. The evidence for this is quite overwhelming. Just ask Burg.

 

So, we shouldn't hold ourselves to the Geneva Convention because our enemies don't? This doesn't make us different from our enemies, it puts on the same plane as our enemies. We should be holding ourselves to a higher standard and not becoming the barbarians and monsters that we see the enemy as.

Cohersive means? You mean torture? Why change the words to describe what this thread is about? If torture doesn't provide good information, and the evidence is there to show that it doesn't, then what's the point of torturing enemies?

What does it tell you when people who aren't liberal are against torture? Does it tell you that there are those of us who more beholden to things other than the platform of "God's Own Party"? BTW, name-calling doesn't add to your arguments, it subtracts from them.

The only reason I see that any Christian would support torture is because "God's Own Party" does and somehow being against torture means they have to accept everything "liberals" stand for and that makes absolutely no sense. I abandon both liberal and conservative positions that are unbiblical and government torture of terrorists is unbiblical.

Right on, Ed. I'll add that torture is not only stupid and mean, but ineffective.

 

So now you're accusing our troops of NOT following the Geneva Convention? Since when? And if they haven't, I'm sure they will be dealt with appropriately.

Maybe my definition of torture is not the same as yous. Torture consists of physical violence. To my knowledge, the US doesn't do this. In fact, in the first gulf war I heard stories of the enemy surrendering to US troops immediately because they knew they WOULD be treated well.

For the record, God doesn't have a political party.

 

All those who are infavor of such tatics as torture for information accuse those against it to be liberals. The truth of the matter is it has nothing to do with your polictical view. Mine is neither republican or democrat. I never could figure out how to choose between the less of two evils. When evil is still evil no mater what you choose.
The fact is that if we allow our government to use torture to gain information from the enemy what are you going to do when the government considers you an enemy? If we are to do unto others then you can exspect it will happen to you.
MB

 

I simply stated that his arguments was incorrect and you need to acknowledge that I also said there are reasonable arguments.

You can call it what you want. I have no problem with withholding food, sleep deprivation, loud music, or even water boarding. They result in no permanent damage and can be quite convincing. They are by no means on the same level as killing family members or be headings. And any attempt to equate them as such is disingenuous.

As far as the effectiveness of coercive interrogation some act as if it is settled that such means are ineffective. Such is not true and it has been quite effective.

 

Ed Edwards, SBC: // The German 1936-1945 experince was that the torture process denigrates the society by eliminating everyone starting with the most compasionate and understanding to the somewhat compasionate and understanding leaving only the inhuman people. //

The Romanian 1945-1975 experience was that the torture process destroys the society by eliminating everyone starting with the most compassionate & understanding people and ending with only the inhuman people. Romania still (2006 is the last report I got) practices infanticide (killing unwanted infants after birth) and geriatric-icide (killing of unwanted elderly folk).

 

As a Christian, I just can't condone torture for any reason. There may be situations where emotionally I would want to condone it, but that doesn't make it okay.

Even in the OT when God brought judgment on his enemies, I cannot think of where they were tortured, although they were killed. The only instance I can think of that sounds slightly torturous is Acts 12:23 and it's disputable as to whether the worms ate him before or after he died (as it reads to me). Anyway, God did this and it wasn't to obtain information. I don't see justification for believers to torture people.

I believe in interrogation and even somewhat harsh conditions (but not inhumane) for enemies in war time, but not torture.

 

I am accusing nobody. The OP is about government torture of terrorists and I am against torture.

I posted a nice definition of torture earlier. Please feel free to take a look at that one.

Does the name Abu Ghraib ring a bell? Maybe it's not happening now, but it certainly has in the past.

Obviously, I agree.

Yes, I agree. I read more into your statement than you meant. Thanks for clarifying.

I would very much like to see evidence of this.

 

Thanks for clearing this up.

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...ntly-confirms-success-of-cia-torture-tactics/

For anyone to say the coercive interrogation does or does not work across the board is just a statement made out of ignorance. But it does have its effectiveness and to much is made out of these tactics. The word torture is used in to broad a manner.

 

That short page probably displays 10 of the 12 most common devices used in propaganda. It is totally unworthy as a statement (but a real good BAD EXAMPLE).

If we mimic the sinful, stupid, inefficient, indecent, inhumane, or cruel methods of the terrorists - the USofA and the allies of the USofA have NOTHING to fight for. using sinful, stupid, inefficient, indecent, inhumane, or cruel methods causes the people (individually or collectively) who use it to become sinful, stupid, inefficient, indecent, inhumane, AND cruel.