Poll: The Forgiveness Thread

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

These are the words of Stephen while he was dying. Though the word "forgive" is not used, the act of forgiving is there. The phrase: "lay not this sin," means "forgive." Stephen was praying to the Lord to forgive them without condition. The statement is a parallel to that which is said by Christ on the cross, except that now Christ is risen, and it is Stephen himself that can intercede as a priest before God for these men. Forgive them. Lay not this sin to their charge.

 

But as you can tell from reading the passage, Stephen was making a request to God; he was not forgiving them. You mention this as being parallel to Christ on the cross, and you are correct. In neither case is forgivenness being transacted, but rather a prayer is being made. God may perhaps forgive them based on their repentance, but in no scriptural case has it been shown that God forgives without confession and repentance.

 

I addressed that in post #27.

I addressed that in post #42.

I addressed that in post #34, pointing that it isn’t the woman at the well she was talking about, but I showed why that case doesn’t make the point anyway.

I have contended for that all the way back to the last thread.

I did that in post #13 by citing two relevant passages:

Eph 4:32 ... Forgive just as God forgave you.
1 John 1:9 ... If we confess our sins ... he will forgive us our sins.

Here, we see that God’s forgiveness is conditioned on confession, and our forgiveness is to be like his.

I don’t think its ridiculous at all. I don’t know what anyone here as gone through except for me, but as I said, I fear that some have not. I may be wrong, but I am not sure how you would know that either.

Actually, Sue said: It is easy to forgive one who is repentant (post #33).

 

All forgiveness ultimately comes from God. Is there anything in the passage that indicates that God denied him his request?

During his Christian life Paul had this testimony:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

It is possible that Paul offended people every day, some of whom he was not able (because of persecution) to go back and ask forgiveness. But at the end of the day his consceince was clear--always. Why? Because God forgives sins (1John 1:9). He had a clear conscience not only before God, but also before men, whether or not he was able to confront the person that had wronged him.

Those at Berea were more nobe than those at Thessalonica.
There were many at Thessalonica that did him wrong, forced him out of their city, etc. Was he able to forgive them without meeting each and every one of them that badly treated him. Paul's conscience was void of offence toward those men. Therefore he must have been able to forgive them without meeting his accusers.

 

From the father's money. The son had already taken his share and spent it. There was no more for him.

I think my argument is solidly conclusive. There is no mention of forgiveness, but there is a clear mention of repentance before the father's greeting, and it may well be that the Father knew he was coming or had gotten word somehow. There is simply not enough to override the biblical teaching that forgiveness requires confession (1 John 1:9). And it's still a parable not meant to address every single little issue.

You should get the book and read it.

Will you please reconcile Eph 4:32 and 1 John 1:9 for us in your view.

 

Is there anything that says God granted it? And if he did, what is the need of saving faith if someone else can ask for your forgiveness and God grant it?

Remember what this verse says: "If we confess."

That's as big a reach as has been made in this whole discussion.

I think, the blamelessness in Acts 24:16 has to do with preaching the gospel and thereby being blameless before them. In any case, it is an extreme stretch to try to say that Paul forgave people for something they had never confessed.

 

Here is a question to ponder.

True story. Several weeks ago, here in Philadelphia, a young man was went into a Dunkin Donuts and began robbing the cashier. While in the process of this robbery, a Philly policeman walked in, not knowing what was occurring. When the robber saw the uniformed officer, he thought he was about to be confronted, so he shot the officer and killed him.

I forgive this man for shooting the officer. What is the benefit of my forgiveness to this man? What is the benefit of my forgiveness to the family of the officer who was killed?

 

When we forgive we are the only one to benefit, not the other person, usually they don't care if you forgive them, or don't even know theres anything to forgive. If we're keeping unforgiveness in our hearts we are the one to suffer for it, not the other person. We can not comapre ourselves to God,w e are not God, the bible tells us to forgive, 70x7, isn't it, God gave us instructions like that, but forgot to tell us we only have to forgive if they ask us too? Thats not anywhere near truth, it's an ignorance of truth.

 

Matt 9:2 "And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, 'Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.'"

Not only does Jesus forgive the sins of someone who doesn't ask for it, He forgives his sins based on the faith expressed by his friends who brought him to Jesus.

Perhaps doctrine cannot be made from one verse. Nevertheless, it is hard to ignore what this verse plainly says.

peace to youraying:

 

Allow me to repeat my story and then ask a couple of other questions:

Two questions:
Does God forgive this man for this murder?
What would you think if the governor of PA said, "I am a Christian and I think we need to practice forgiveness. Sir, I forgive you for the killing of this officer and I pardon you from all charges related to this crime. You are now free".

 

Yes, if he confesses his sin to God as in 1 John 1:9. He would still have to face the law and the price he would have to pay for the killing and breaking the law of the state.

There would be a lot of people marching in the streets in the city and state. I would say lets get him out of office and get someone who will go by the law of our city, state and country.

 

Why would you forgive him? He didn't sin against you.

 

But he said our forgiveness is to be like his, and he requires confession before forgiveness. So on what basis do you say that our forgiveness doesn't have to be like his?

 

So where does this verse plainly say that the man did not repent? Given the biblical teaching that faith and repentance are necessary for salvation, why would you think that God changed his mind on this one? Aren't you reading into the text something it does not say? Of course you are. The Bible doesn't say that he didn't repent. We don't know why his friends brought him. What if they had had a conversation where the man asked? Furthermore, as we all know, Scripture does not record the exact words or all the words of every conversation. The man had faith ... which in biblical terminology is used interchangeably with repentance. So it seems that this one actually fits my view, not yours.

 

Yes, and Eph 4:32 says that our horizontal forgiveness is to be modeled on the vertical forgivness of 1 JOhn 1:9. I don't think you can get around that, which is why I changed my position. The Scripture was simply too clear on this.

No, again, please remember what I said. The attitude of forgiveness is different than forgiveness. And if someone doesn't ask for forgiveness, I am not sinning by not granting it.

No, remember when you started this thread, I pointed out several things in the other thread that you had missed. One of them was that we are not permitted to hold a spirit of unforgiveness in our hearts. Please, read what I am actually saying.

There's no trap there. I would say Yes, based on the teaching of Scripture that our forgiveness is to be like God's forgiveness. When God forgives, he does not refuse to reconcile and restore. So on what basis can we?

Again, please deal with Scripture in your answer. Sob stories don't make for good theology. The call of the gospel is radical, and we must base our lives on that.

 

According to some here, if you ask God to forgive him God will. And they will cite Jesus on teh cross and STephen at his death as proof of it. I disagree. God will forgive him if he repents. And he will be restored and reconciled to God. That won't remove the civil claims of government.

I would think the guy needs some time in the Scriptures to understand what forgiveness is .