Pope Alexander IV

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Bro. Curtis, Feb 3, 2012.

  1. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."

    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

    Pope Alexander IV is a great study int his subject. One of my favorites. RCC apologists will say that the above doctrine does not protect the pope from personal sin. But this pope did his deeds in the name of the church.

    Even New Advent says, about him...

    An impartial appreciation of the career of this extraordinary person must at once distinguish between the man and the office. "An imperfect setting", says Dr. Pastor (op. cit., III, 475), "does not affect the intrinsic worth of the jewel, nor does the golden coin lose its value when it passes through impure hands. In so far as the priest is a public officer of a holy Church, a blameless life is expected from him, both because he is by his office the model of virtue to whom the laity look up, and because his life, when virtuous, inspires in onlookers respect for the society of which he is an ornament. But the treasures of the Church, her Divine character, her holiness, Divine revelation, the grace of God, spiritual authority, it is well known, are not dependent on the moral character of the agents and officers of the Church. The foremost of her priests cannot diminish by an iota the intrinsic value of the spiritual treasures confided to him." There have been at all times wicked men in the ecclesiastical ranks. Our Lord foretold, as one of its severest trials, the presence in His Church not only of false brethren, but of rulers who would offend, by various forms of selfishness, both the children of the household and "those who are without". Similarly, Ho compared His beloved spouse, the Church, to a threshing floor, on which fall both chaff and grain until the time of separation. The most severe arraignments of Alexander, because in a sense official, are those of his Catholic contemporaries, Pope Julius II (Gregorovius, VII, 494) and the Augustinian cardinal and reformer, Aegidius of Viterbo, in his manuscript "Historia XX Saeculorum", preserved at Rome in the Bibliotheca Angelica. The Oratorian Raynaldus (d. 1677), who continued the semi-official Annals of Baronius, gave to the world at Rome (ad an. 1460, no. 41) the above-mentioned paternal but severe reproof of the youthful Cardinal by Pius II, and stated elsewhere (ad an. 1495, no. 26) that it was in his time the opinion of historians that Alexander had obtained the papacy partly through money and partly through promises and the persuasion that ho would not interfere with the lives of his electors. Mansi, the scholarly Archbishop of Lucca editor and annotator of Raynaldus, says (XI, 4155) that it is easier to keep silence than to write write moderation about this Pope. The severe judgment of the late Cardinal Hergenröther, in his "Kirchengeschichte", or Manual of Church History (4th. ed., Freiburg, 1904, II, 982-983) is too well known to need more than mention.

    How does a church protected by God himself, from error, put a guy like this at the head of it ?
     
  2. WestminsterMan

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    Infallibility <> Impecability.

    WM
     
  3. billwald

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    >How does a church protected by God himself, from error, put a guy like this at the head of it ?

    St Paul was a guy like that.
     
  4. Bro. Curtis

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    Before of after his conversion ?

    When was he made pope ?

    Did Paul ever speak ex-cathedra ?
     
  5. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    Is that a question ?
     
  6. billwald

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    >Did Paul ever speak ex-cathedra ?

    Yes, by Baptist definition and usage. I'm probably the only one on BB who thinks Paul's letters and statements attributed to him are NOT without error.
     
  7. WestminsterMan

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    Nope...it's test for equality and as such, it is false.

    WM
     
  8. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    Even if you denied all of the epistles, Acts tells us Paul did his evil before he was saved. How does this compare ?
     
  9. Bro. Curtis

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    So infallibilty is the ability to get other popes to not overturn your work ?
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Below are two coins, one ancient and the other fairly modern. Ceasar, as Pontifex Maximus is on the older coin and Pope John Paul as Pontifex Maximus is on the newer coin.

    The Pontifex Maximus was the cheif Pontif in the college of Pontifs in Ancient Roman Religion. He primarilary the cheif priest of Cybele the "Mother of gods" whose son Attis was the man/god who died and was resurrected. Hence, Ceasar was worshipped as a man/god. The temple of Cybele was built on Vatican Hill. The Pontifex Maximus was the "bridge builder" between man and god


    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=pict...bnw=173&start=12&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:12



    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=pict...tbnw=110&start=84&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:84

    This next site shows you the ancient symbols of Ceasar as the Pontifix Maximus:

    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=pict...28&ndsp=13&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:128&tx=131&ty=61


    The next site below brings you to an ancient Roman Coin of Ceasar in about A.D. 71 where one side of the coin shows Rome pictured as a Woman sitting on Seven hills. This would be clearly in the minds of all the early Christians when they read Revelation 17.

    http://christianunityblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/vespasian-seven-hills.jpg


    Archeological artifacts tell no lies.
     
  11. billwald

    billwald
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    >Archeological artifacts tell no lies

    And no truths. The evidence is interpreted by humans.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    I disagree. There are arcehological evidences that repudiate human interpretations of scripture by their very nature. For example, when liberal Bible scholars said there was no such king as King Sargon and then archeology dug up bricks with his name on every one! Or when liberals said no writing existed at the time of Moses and then they dug up the Summarian clay tablets and the list goes on.

    Hence, when Catholic scholars say that New Testament Christians would not recognize any symbolism of Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills, the A.D. 71 Roman minted coin showing her as a woman sitting on seven hills proves that New Testament Christianit would recognize such a symbol as Jesus pointed to a Roman coin with Ceasar's image on it and so we know these coins were known in Israel.

    Likewise, the title "Pontifex Maximus" found on current coinage in Italy but equally found as the title of Ceasar as the head of the pagan State Religion shows the true origin of that title and it is not with the Scriptures or a title God bestowed.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Feb 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2012
  13. Matt Black

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    Fortunately neither did the monster formerly known as Rodrigo Borgia, AFAIK. Infallibility only relates to matters of dogma pronounced ex cathedra and Alexander VI was too busy fathering children and being a bit of a b****** himself to bother with that kind of thing.
     
  14. JarJo

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    I still see divine providence at work here, not in that fact that this man became pope, but rather that somehow the church got through that difficult time without introducing new erroneous teachings. That's what I find amazing and miraculous.
     
  15. Bro. Curtis

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    Like I said, he did his actions in the name of the Holy Church. He was elected in the tradition of all of them, in a church "protected from error".

    Why is he called "Holy Father" if he is indeed, not holy ?
     
  16. Bro. Curtis

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    The church confiscated property and sold people into slavery under his rule.

    The miracle seems to be any real Christians survived.
     
  17. JarJo

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    I couldn't find anything about slavery on the Wikipedia article about him.
     
  18. Bro. Curtis

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    Wikipedia, eh ?


    Even the New Advent site calls him "The Pope without an apologist".
     
  19. Walter

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    You nailed it, Matt!
     

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