Pope Pius XII "creates" doctrine out of THIN AIR!

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by rufus, Feb 20, 2003.

  1. rufus

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    SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION
    Rome, November 1,1950

    Pope Pius XII, seated on a red throne in the center of Saint Peter's Square, looked with satisfaction upon the document before him. It represented the culmination of a process that had begun almost 100 years earlier and the fulfillment of a personal promise that he had made to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Over 700,000 Catholics had come to the Vatican to witness the signing of the document.

    Born Eugenio Maria Giuseppe Pacelli, Pius Xll's election as Pope in 1939 surprised no one. The Pacelli family had served the Vatican for decades. His grandfather had been the Vatican's Under Secretary of the Interior. His father and brother were distinguished Vatican lawyers. Eugenio himself was an expert in canon law and an experienced diplomat. The previous Pope, Pius XI, had chosen him to serve as Vatican Secretary of State. It was soon apparent that the Pope was grooming Eugenio to be his successor. When Pius XI died, the cardinals elected Eugenio as the new Pope in the shortest conclave in modem history. In honor of his mentor, Eugenio took the name of Pius XII.

    One of the first goals of the new Pope was to promote devotion to Mary, but the outbreak of World War II delayed his plans. Once the war was over, however, Pius sent an encyclical, Deiparae Virginis Mariae, to the bishops of the world in 1946. In it he reviewed how for almost 100 years Catholics had been petitioning the Vatican to formally declare that God had taken Mary bodily into heaven. Pope Pius then asked the bishops for their position on the matter:

    ... We wish lo know if you, Venerable Brethren, with your learning and prudence consider that the bodily Assumption of the Immaculate Blessed Virgin can be proposed and defined as a dogma of faith, and whether in addition to your own wishes this is desired by your clergy and people,
    -Deiparae Virginis Mariae-no. 4

    The response to the letter was beyond the Pope's expectations. Petitions encouraging Pius to move ahead flooded the Vatican.

    Nevertheless, Pius' legal training made him hesitant to act. It was a well-established principle of the Roman Catholic Church that doctrine must be contained in the deposit of faith-that is, in Scripture and Tradition. The Bible said nothing about Mary's death, burial, or Assumption. Witnesses to Tradition from the first centuries were also silent. In such a case, it was not clear whether the Pope had the prerogative to define a doctrine. Pius carefully studied the matter and decided that it was too soon to act on the petitions before him. First he would need to clarify the scope of the Church's teaching authority.

    On August 12, 1950, Pope Pius XII issued another encyclical to the bishops, Humani Generis. It appeared to be a routine pastoral warning of the dangers of modern theological trends. Some Catholic scholars, however, noticed something different:

    It soon became evident that behind the encylical was a deeper substratum of papal thought. In one passage of the document an apparent leap ahead in doctrinal development was acknowledged.
    -The Papacy Today-p.69

    The passage in Pope Pius' letter that caught the attention of theologians was short but significant:

    ... God has given to His Church a living Teaching Authority to elucidate and explain what is contained in the deposit of faith only obscurely and implicitly. This deposit of faith
    our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only lo the Teaching Authority of the Church.
    -Humani Generis-no. 21

    Clearly, Pius was preparing to dogmatically define the Assumption of Mary. That is, he was going "to elucidate and explain" that the Assumption of Mary was "contained in the deposit of faith," even though admittedly "only obscurely and implicitly." He would do so despite a lack of clear support either from Scripture or from early witnesses to
    Tradition.

    Three months later, on November 1,1950, Pope Pius took his seat before an overflow crowd in Saint Peter's Square. In front of him lay the final draft of a document titled Munificentissimus Deus, that is, Most Bountiful God. It traced the history of widespread Catholic belief in the Assumption of Mary. The document concluded with a declaration staying:

    By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it lo be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
    -Munificentissimus Deus-no.44

    Pope Pius XII, with characteristic precision, signed the document, "I, Pius, Bishop of the Catholic Church, have signed, so defining." The bells of Rome's 400 churches thundered their approval as the crowd cheered and applauded.

    On that day Pope Pius not only achieved his goal to honor Mary but in so doing also established a new precedent for the development of doctrine within Roman Catholicism.

    rufus [​IMG]

    [ February 22, 2003, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: rufus ]
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Fascinating!!

    So NO support from scripture.

    NO support from 1st century sources or witnesses.

    hmmm. They just "made up" the doctrine about Mary being assumed into heaven - based on errors claimed about Mary being "sinless like Christ"..

    But is it not amazing that UNLIKE Christ - The NT apostles would NOT MENTION Mary's being raised to life?

    Is it not amazing that MARY did not EVEN get the mention of the unnamed daughter of Jarius, of the greek Dorcas, of the unnamed Widow of Nain's child, of Lazarus the brother of Martha -- ALL these have their resurrections mentioned - but NOT Mary?? NOT even a century AFTERWARDS?? Nothing??

    How "difficult" to pass off as true? How challenging? And yet how successful they have been!

    Mariolotry seems to rule.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. thessalonian

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    Rufus,

    This topic has been discussed ad nauseum in a thread started by Curtis below. Look it up. First of all, saying that the actual event was not recorded in scripture is not the same as saying there is no support in scripture. That would be like saying that there is no scriptural support for the end times events that Christians believe will happen according to the book of Revalatoins. The events are not written down themselves but that does not mean they will not happen. Of course some like the pre-trib rapture will not happen. The scriptural support lies in Luke 1 related to the text in 2 Sam 6 relating Mary to the Ark of the covenant. Psalm 132:8

    "Rise up O Lord and go to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.".

    has then been used by the likes of, I believe it was Augustine to refer to Mary's assumption. I will look it up if you like.

    Mary was known as the Ark of the New Covenant by several Church fathers. If you look in 2 Sam 6, luke draws a parrellel at the visitation of Elizabeth. John leaps before Mary, while in Samuel David leaps before the Ark. David says a phrase very close to Elizabeth's "how is it that the mother of my lord should come to me" with regard to the Ark. "how can the ark of my Lord come to me...". Mary stays with Elizabeth for 3 months, The Ark stays with Obemedon for 3 months. Both instances occur in the Hill Country of Judah. Coincidence you say. Not likely.

    Rev 11 & 12 provide more evidence but I will let you chew on this.

    Blessings ruf.
     
  4. rufus

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    thessalonian

    This tread is about the Pope "creating" doctrine out of THIN AIR. Sorry, you missed the point.

    Perhaps I could send you helps for your exegetical skills, friend.

    rufus [​IMG]
     
  5. Claudia

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  6. rufus

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    Claudia

    Don't get sidetracked here. This is only indirectly about Mary. It is directly about the Pope "creating" doctrine out of thin air.

    rufus [​IMG]
     
  7. thessalonian

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    Rufus,

    Well, that may be what the title says but that is not the truth of the matter. The feast of the assumption was celebrated in both Eastern and Western Catholic Churchs all over the world as early as the 7th Century. So Pius XII who lived in the 1940's could not possibly have created it. Now if you want to find someone else who created it by all means try. But the title of your thread is severely historically flawed. Of course we know that Prots are historically challenged. Just kidding. [​IMG]

    Blessings ruf.
     
  8. Bro. Curtis

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    Hi Thessalonian. I remember that thread, where I asked how John could have possibly missed the "assumption, or ascension" whatever you want to call it. I got no answers. Also, nobody gave any Biblical proof, and no, your above answer doesn't translate at all, to Mary leaving the Earth, bodily. If it happened, it would be spelled out for all to understand. The thread is still there, with all the nastiness, and unanswered questions.

    There is no Earthly reason at all to put tradition, or pope's decrees, on the same level with the Bible. None.
     
  9. Carson Weber

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    The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary can be supported with Scripture.

    "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery" (Rev 11:19-12:2).

    As John portrays the appearance of the ark of the covenant in a display of theophany, the ark turns out to be none other than New Ark of the New Covenant: Mary, the Woman prescribed in Genesis 3:15, who is in heaven, body (feet, head, etc.) and soul - and crowned as Queen.

    As The Ark held the Decalogue, the Manna, and Aaron's Staff, so Mary held the Word of God, the Bread from Heaven, and our High Priest in her womb for 9 months.

    It is Mary who serves as the archetype of Israel and the New Israel, the Church, she who is mother of all Christians (see also John's depiction of the Crucifixion in John 19:26-27) as the Church is the mother of all Christians.

    "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev 12:17).

    Our Protestant brothers and sisters can disagree all they want with this interpretation of John's Apocalypsis (I don't mind if they disagree; that's their job it seems), but they must admit that there is no Scriptural support for the Assumption by way of their private interpretation. They cannot say that "there is no Scriptural support for the Assumption" at all.

    There is. There it is.

    [ February 22, 2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  10. thessalonian

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  11. Chrissy

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    Rv:12:6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Now how could this "woman" be Mary? Did Mary go flee to the wilderness for 1260 days? The 1260 day prophecy of Revelation, that's another topic altogether so I wont discuss it. It has to do with God's church experiencing persecution from Satan's church.

    NO [​IMG] the woman is not Mary.


    It was the church. The term "woman" means CHURCH.

    and by the way, two different churches are pointed out in Revelation, God's church and Satan's church:

    Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rv:17:3: So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    ------------

    Here read all of it in context from Revelation chapter 12:

    1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    --- What you need to realize is that often in prophecy, the Bible says one event, backs up a few steps, explains something else, and so on.

    This entire portrayal in Revelation chapter 12 has to do with the war in heaven, when Lucifer wasnted to be god, he was cast out of heaven and his deceived angels with him. (see Isaiah chapter 14). The devil then, being cast down to earth began deceiving human beings... such as Eve. He began persecuting the church, the "woman".

    When it talks about the "woman" being in birth, it means the time in the history of the church, when baby Jesus was born in Bethlehem. But this does not mean its talking about Mary, it cannot be that... because of all the other characteristics of the woman and the events that happened to her.

    The woman, God's true remnant church, keeps the commandments of God, and of course, Satan's church (the scarlet woman mentioned later in rev chapter 17) does not.

    ---


    you could read more on the 1260 prophecy and what it really means here:
    http://www.steps2life.org/library/dvierra/virgin_6.htm

    [ February 22, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Chrissy ]
     
  12. CatholicConvert

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    kai h gunh efugen eis thn erhmon opou exei topon htoimasmenon apo tou qeou ina ekei trefwsin authn hmeras xilias diakosias echkonta

    Chrissy --

    Since you are a Bible Scholar, please find in the above rendering of Rev. 12:6, the word which means "church". I'm sure you have a raft of proof for your assertion, so have at it!!
     
  13. GraceSaves

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    Chrissy,

    When did the church flee into the wilderness for 1260 days?

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  14. CatholicConvert

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    No, it is not to be kidding to say that Protestants are historically challenged. One of the BIGGEST surprises that almost EVERY Protestant convert to the Church reports is that when they began to really READ and STUDY the EARLY FATHERS, they found that the historical church WAS Catholic and no traces were to be found of their precious doctrines.

    The honor given to the Theotokos goes back almost to the first century. Like all doctrines, it had to develope. Protestants also cannot think logically. Christ said that the kingdom would be like a mustard seed planted in the ground which, when fully grown, would be among the largest trees.

    Now when in any sort of logical thinking does a seed look like the full grown tree? Only in Protestant logic, which believes that somehow Christ dropped the Church out of thin air, fully developed, and ready to go. Unfortunately, the wicked "papists" chopped down the tree and substituted a plastic imitation of their own until (John Calvin, Martin Luther, Ellen White, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith.....ad infinitum) "found" the original roots and grew the tree back up out of the ground.

    Well, not hardly. As mentioned before, in both the Orthodox East and the Catholic West, there existed a full and rich veneration of our Blessed Lady which goes back long before Vatican I (Of course, why let the FACTS bother you when you can beat up "papists" for their stupid beliefs, right?). These teachings, feasts, and icons of the Blessed Virgin began in "seed" form along with many of the other teachings of the Church, and throughout the centuries have been refined and pruned as the "tree" of knowledge grew and flourished.

    Here is an excellent article on the role of the Blessed Virgin and Her relationship to the Blessed Trinity.

    MARY, SPOUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

    Of course, it won't convince any of those who do not wish to be convinced, who think that by honoring our Mother, we dishonor the Lord, or who think that such "idolatry" will most assurely reserve a front row seat in Hell for them, but it is very good for those with "eyes to see".

    (I believe you will need an Adobe Reader to open this site. You can download Adobe Reader free at

    ADOBE DOWNLOADS

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  15. Chrissy

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    Catholic Convert

    Grace Saves

    -You can find the answer to your questions here:

    http://www.biblerevelations.org/antichrist/chapter2.htm


    http://www.biblerevelations.org/antichrist/chapter3.htm


    (and I am not a Bible Scholar, just a regular 'ole person)

    Catholic Convert... by the way, what does all this mean that you said? "kai h gunh efugen eis thn erhmon opou exei topon htoimasmenon apo tou qeou ina ekei trefwsin authn hmeras xilias diakosias echkonta"
    ..what on earth does that mean?

    [ February 22, 2003, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Chrissy ]
     
  16. Chrissy

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    Catholic Convert,

    Mary is NOT my Mother. And I find the characteristics placed upon her by the Catholic Church to be completely unbiblical. Talk about creating doctrine out of thin air! The entire worship of Mary is a doctrine created out of thin air because it most assuredly is not in the Bible.


    The following is from Vance Ferrel (this article is a couple of years old):
    ---------------
    Pope John Paul II intends to declare Mary the Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate of humanity. This will make it the fifth official Catholic Marian dogma, or article of faith.

    Here are all five:

    1 - Mary is the “Mother of God.”

    2 - Mary was “Ever-Virgin.”

    3 - Mary was “immaculately conceived,” without stain of sin.

    4 - Mary was assumed (translated) to Heaven, and there crowned “Queen of Heaven and Earth.”

    5 - Mary is the “Mediatrix of all Graces, Co-Redemptrix, and Advocate” between man and God.

    Some believed that the pope was going to issue this declaration at the World Congress of Ecclesial Movements, meeting on May 27-29, 1998, at Rome, immediately prior to the Pentecost festival. Indeed, a major petition drive by Marian zealots urged him to do just that. But it is more likely that he will do it in the year 2000.

    As an article of faith, every Catholic throughout the world would be bound to accept and believe this ex-cathedra (infallible) pronouncement of the pope, on pain of losing his salvation if he were to reject it.

    According to papal teaching, to reject an ex-cathedra declaration of the pope is to reject the infallibly declared word of God. It is maintained that such statements have the same authority as if God Himself declared them.

    These titles, “Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate” have a very significant meaning: They would indicate that no one in the world can have salvation except through Mary. They cannot obtain it direct from Jesus Christ.

    Yet, in reality, this concept has been taught for centuries in various church-approved statements, journals, and books—by Catholic writers, editors, councils, and popes.

    Here are several major statements by popes; many more could be cited:

    “If in all this series of Mysteries, Venerable Brethren, are developed the counsels of God in regard to us—‘counsels of wisdom and of tenderness,’ according to St. Bernard—not less apparent is the greatness of the benefits for which we are debtors to the Virgin Mother. No man can meditate upon these without feeling a new awakening in his heart of confidence that he will certainly obtain through Mary the fullness of the mercies of God.

    “And to this end, vocal prayer chimes well with the Mysteries. First, as is meet and right comes the Lord’s prayer, addressed to Our Father in Heaven; and having, with the elect, petitions dictated by Our Divine Master, called upon the Father, from the throne of His Majesty—we turn our prayerful voices to Mary.

    “Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernar­dine of Siena thus expresses: ‘Every grace granted man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.”—Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical, promulgated on September 8, 1894, quoted in Iucunda Semper Expectatione (On the Rosary).

    “At Cana in Galilee there is shown only one concrete aspect of human need, apparently a small one of little importance. [‘They have no wine.’] But it has a symbolic value: this coming to the aid of human needs means, at the same time, bringing those needs within the radius of Christ’s messianic mission and salvific power.

    “Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself ‘in the middle;’ that is to say, she acts as mediatrix not as an outsider, but in her position as a mother.

    “She knows that, as such, she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she ‘has the right’ to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary ‘intercedes’ for mankind.”—Pope John Paul II, Encyclical, promulgated on March 15, 1987, quoted in Redemptoris Mater (On the Bless­ed Virgin Mary in the Life of the Pilgrim Church).

    The following Vatican press release quotes from a papal address:

    “The heavenly Father has wished to unite ‘to the priestly intercession of the Redeemer the maternal intercession of the Virgin. It is a function that she exercises to the benefit of those who are in danger and need temporal favors, and above all, eternal salvation.’

    “The titles with which the Christian people address the Mother of the Lord ‘help in understanding better the nature of her intervention in the life of the Church and of each of the faithful.’

    “As ‘Advocate, she defends her children and protects them from the damage caused by their own faults. Christians invoke Mary as help of Christians, recognizing her motherly love that sees the needs of her children, and that she is prepared to intervene to help them, especially when eternal salvation is at stake.’

    “She receives the title of ‘Helper’ because ‘she is near all those who suffer or find themselves in situations of grave danger.’

    “Finally, ‘as maternal Mediator, Mary presents Christ with our wishes, our supplications, and transmits to us His divine gifts, interceding continually in our favor.’ ”—Vatican Information Services press release, quoting Pope John Paul II, statement made in general audience in Vatican Square, September 24, 1997 [emphasis theirs].

    “Pope John Paul II recalled that Vatican Council II gave Mary the title of ‘Mediatrix,’ which affirms that ‘with her multiple intercession she continues to obtain for us the gift of eternal salvation.’

    “ ‘Despite the fact that some council fathers did not fully agree with’ the attribution of this title to Mary, ‘it was nonetheless included in the dogmatic constitution of the Church to confirm that value of the truth that it expresses. However, they avoided joining it to any particular theology of mediation, and it was only included among the other titles recognized as Mary’s.’ ”—Vatican Information Service, quoting John Paul II at a general audience in St. Peter’s Square, October 1, 1997.

    At this juncture in that speech, John Paul cleverly sidesteps the clear statement of 1 Timothy 2:5.

    “ ‘In proclaiming Christ the one mediator, the text of the Letter of Saint Paul to Timothy excludes any parallel mediation, but not a subordinate mediation . . It is possible to participate in Christ’s mediation in different spheres of the work of salvation . . In this will [desire] to stir participation in the unique mediation of Christ, the free love of God, who wants to share what He possesses, is manifested.”—Ibid.

    Such remarks clearly present Mary as Co-Re­demp­­trix and Mediatrix. (Keep in mind that not only Mary, but the pope and the priests are mediators between the soul and God and extend forgiveness to men.)

    On May 13, 1983, an assassination attempt was made on John Paul II in St. Peter’s Square. That date was an anniversary of the first appearance of the so-called apparition of Our Lady of Fatima on May 13, 1917, in Portugal.

    During his recovery, the pope credited his survival to the direct intervention of Mary. On the first May 13 after his recovery, he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to worship the statue of Mary at the shrine; and, through the statue, he expressed his thanks to Mary for having saved his life.

    A primary element in Christianity is believing that God is good, that He loves you, and that you can come to Him in repentance and be reconciled.

    But Roman Catholicism is a distorted system which denies all these truths! It teaches that God the Father is full of vengeful hatred; that Christ the Son cares little for you; and only Mary is good, loving, and the only one through whom you can repent and be reconciled with Heaven.



    Here are several additional statements about Mary as the only means of salvation:



    THE ROMAN CHANNEL OF GRACE

    “[Mary is] the first steward in the dispensing of all graces.”—Pius X, quoted in F.J. Sheed, Theology for Beginners, p. 132.

    “We have no greater help, no greater hope than you. O Most Pure Virgin; help us, then. For we hope in you, we glory in you. We are your servants, do not disappoint us.”—Novena Prayers in Honor of Our Mother of Perpetual Help (published by Sisters of St. Basil, with imprimatur).

    “Christ has taken His seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high . . and Mary as Queen stands at His right hand.”—Pius X, Mary Mediatrix, in Encyclical: Ad Diem Illum.

    “Mary is Our Lady and Queen because she, the new Eve, has shared intimately in the redemptive work of Christ, the new Adam, by suffering with Him and offering Him up to the Eternal Father.”—Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 211 (1974).

    Alphonsus de Liguori wrote two books in lavish praise of Mary (The Glories of Mary, 1750) and Catholic priests (The Duties and Dignities of the Priest). He was rewarded with sainthood. Because he was canonized, his statements are infallible.

    “With reason does an ancient writer call her ‘the only hope of sinners’; for by her help alone can we hope for the remission of sins.”—De Liguori, The Glories of Mary (ed. Eugene Grimm: Redemptorist Fathers, 1931), p. 83.

    “ ‘Many things,’ says Nicephorus, ‘are asked from God, and are not granted; they are asked from Mary, and are obtained.’ ”—Op. cit., p. 137.

    “If God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him.”—Op. cit., p. 124.

    “[Prayer of St. Ephram:] ‘O Immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection . . we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil.’”—Op. cit., p. 273.

    “ ‘At the command of Mary all obey—even God.’ St. Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands . . Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made of Mary, also omnipotent.”—Op. cit., p. 82.

    “Because men acknowledge and fear the divine Majesty, which is in him [Christ] as God, for this reason it was necessary to assign us another advocate, to whom we might have recourse with less fear and more confidence, and this advocate is Mary, whom we cannot find one more powerful with his divine majesty, or one more merciful towards ourselves . . A mediator, then, was needed with the mediator himself.”—Op. cit., pp. 180-182.

    “Nothing whatever of that immense treasure of all graces, which the Lord brought us . . is granted to us save through Mary, so that, just as no one can come to the Father on high except through the Son, so almost in the same manner, no one can come to Christ except through his Mother.”—Leo XIII, Magnae Dei Matris.

    “She [Mary] remains forever associated to Him [Christ], with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of the graces which flow from the Redemption. Jesus is King throughout all eternity by nature and by right of conquest; through Him, with Him and subordinate to Him, Mary is Queen by grace, by divine relationship, by right of conquest and by singular election. And her kingdom is as vast as that of her son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.”—Pius XII, quoted in E.R. Carrol (ed.), Mariology, Vol. 1, p. 49 (1955).
     
  17. Chrissy

    Chrissy
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    Mary is dead. So anything you claim about her is impossible from the start. Yours is a doctrine of SPIRITUALISM.... condemned in the Bible. The doctrine of natural immortality of the soul was yet another doctrine created out of thin air by Rome.

    Read for details to find out FROM THE BIBLE where Mary really is:

    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/stateofthedead.htm
     
  18. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
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    Chrissy --

    I bet you go to that SDA assembly on the hill in Hershey, doncha? The one with the blue tinted windows.

    You know, dear, if you are going to come in here and play with the "big boys" then you need to have a concordance, a Bible, and a couple of Bible dictionaries on your computer desk. No one is asking you to be a Bible scholar, but the above tools will be of immense help to you in not making the kind of statements as you did above.

    The language is NT Greek from my very nice Sword Searcher computer program, and the word we are looking for in Rev. 12:6, which I quoted in Greek, is the word "eklessia" or some derivation of that word.

    It is NOT in there, young lady. Not even remotely.

    Now, let's see if I can use my tools to find out what this is speaking about.....be right back.

    Dum de dah dum......hmmmmmm de dah de dah....ah, here we go...

    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Page 1180 The word for woman is # 1135 in the Greek Dictionary in the back

    *rustle rustle* *turning pages*

    and....

    the Greek word for woman is "gune" (goonay). Means woman. And I notice that in the concordance that this same word is used in (ah......let's count 'em here) 105 verses in the NT, and in every case, it means A WOMAN!!!

    Therefore, for you to say that this means "the Church" in the way you intimated it in your post is not honest exegesis.

    I find it interesting that neither of the Protestant Bible Dictionaries I have will even TOUCH Rev. 12:6

    WONDER WHY!?! :D :D

    Woman means woman, not "church." Now perhaps you meant to say that the woman was symbolic of the Church, which is a different thing altogether than what you wrote, but the way I took it was that you were saying that when one reads Rev. 12: 6, the word "woman" means "church". Of course, if you want to go there, the Catholic Church would agree with you entirely, for the Blessed Virgin, as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, is identified with Him, and therefore is represented by the Church on earth, which is the representation of the Spirit's work on earth. As the Church is the Bride of Christ/God on earth, so is the Blessed Virgin the spouse of the Holy Spirit in Heaven.

    And you may read about that here:

    MARY, SPOUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed

    Incidentally, since you live in the Harrisburg environs, if you would like to see a true NT worship (at least, as close as you will get) dating back to the 6th century, you should visit St. Ann's Byzantine Catholic Church over on Locust Lane.
     
  19. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
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    Chrissy --

    Mary is dead. So anything you claim about her is impossible from the start. Yours is a doctrine of SPIRITUALISM.... condemned in the Bible. The doctrine of natural immortality of the soul was yet another doctrine created out of thin air by Rome.

    Those who are in Christ are most assuredly NOT dead. They are, in fact, very much alive, more alive than you and I can even begin to imagine, since they are no longer bound by sin and the passions and are intimately united with Christ the Savior.

    I find yours a strange theology which would insist that those who died in faith are not alive. The whole purpose of the redemption was that Christ defeated death and redeemed all creation back to the Father.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  20. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
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    Chrissy --

    You may deny the Blessed Virgin's maternity over the world all you wish, it does not change the fact.

    You do know that you are a daugter of Eve, don't you? We are all the descendants of our First Parents. That is why we are in the trouble we are in. We inherited from them a lot of bad stuff and a real tendency to love sin more than God.

    Well, if under the Old Covenant and in the flesh you are the daughter of Eve, then in the redemption of Christ, are you not the daughter of the New Eve? And since Jesus is the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45), then WHO is His Eve? After all, if the redemption has given us a new Adam as the new covenantal head of humanity, then for the redemption to be complete, the new Adam must have a new Eve. Anything less is an incomplete redemption of the Garden family.

    One of the problems which you will have with Catholic language is that it is written for "family members", so to speak. As a convert to the Faith, I can tell you that the worlds of Catholic and Protestant theology speak in very different languages and understandings. It is like an American learning Russian to learn how the Catholic Faith views things....it is hard, takes a lot of study, and you must open your mind. Trying to understand Russian by overlaying English on the Cyrilic alphabet simply does not work.

    Unfortunately, when Protestants see some of the phrases which Catholic theologians put out, they do not understand the larger context. Everything that the Blessed Virgin has is a result of Her union with God as Her Spouse. It is through Him that He operates and that She dispenses all graces completely in accordance with His divine will. Yet the two act so much as one that one can attribute all of the graces of the Holy Spirit as coming from and by the Blessed Virgin. Well catechized Catholics (and Holy Orthodox) understand this, but unfortunately, such explanations not being given with statements like "Mary, mediatrix of all graces", it makes it sound like a bold and horrible usurpation of God's authority, power, and dignity.

    If you study and understand the marital covenant you will understand the work of God the Holy Spirit through the Blessed Virgin.

    Brother Ed

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     

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