Post-mil is right

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    Contrary to what many of us may have thought, and what makes for "good preaching" in many pulpits, the facts are that the Church is growing in this world and atheism is on its heels.

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/study-world-is-turning-more-religious-atheism-declining-100518/

    https://www.facebook.com/mikehuckabee/posts/10151564182297869

    I think the Bible teaches that the Kingdom of God will grow slowly in this world until the world is largely conquered by the Gospel before Christ comes.

    I think that is what we see as we study history.

    To see it, though, you have to look at history in large swaths, not the events of, say, a hundred years. There are brief periods of decline here and there. Look at it in terms of 500 years or even a thousand years. Are there not more Christians today than there were in Paul's day? And you have to look at it worldwide rather than, say, just America. Are not there Christians in MANY more places of the earth today than in Paul's day? In Charlemagne's day?


    Life is better for the one who embraces postmillennialism. The optimism is refreshing. The feeling that we are a part of something that is winning- not GOING to win after failing miserably for two thousand years- but winning right now- it is invigorating.

    It is the eschatology of most Protestants before World War I.


    I challenge you to consider it.


    Here is a pretty good exegetical study on the subject:
    http://www.wordmp3.com/files/gs/postmill.htm

    And what about passages that teach that things will get worse?

    Here in this brief video those passages are put in their proper context:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1xkzlO2xJ4
     
  2. kyredneck

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    Thanks for the links Luke. Although I probably don't qualify as a post mil, there's much that I do agree with.

    Excerpt from Hassell's Church History, 1886:

    “But it is the opinion of the great majority of Bible scholars that there will be but one more personal advent of Christ, and that it will be after the Millennium. They maintain that the idea of a pre-millennial advent is Jewish in its origin, and Judaizing or materializing in its tendency; that it disparages the present, the dispensation of the Holy Ghost; that it is inconsistent with the Scriptures, which teach that Christ comes but twice, to atone and to judge (Heb. 9:28); that the Heavens must receive Christ until the times of the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21); that Christ's kingdom is not of this world, but spiritual (Matthew 13:11-44; John 17:36; Rom. 14:17); that it was not to be confined to the Jews (Matthew 8:11, 12); that regeneration is the essential antecedent of admission to it (John 3:3-5); that the blessings of the kingdom are purely spiritual, as repentance, pardon, faith, etc. (Matthew 3:2, 11; Acts 5:31; Gal. 5:22, 23, etc.); that the kingdom of Christ has already come, He having sat upon the throne of His Father David ever since His ascension (Acts 2:29-36; 3:13-15; 4:26-28; 5:29-31; Heb. 10:12, 13; Rev. 3:7-12), so that the Old Testament prophecies predicting this kingdom must refer to the present dispensation of grace, and not to a future reign of Christ on earth in person among men in the flesh; and that the church is to be complete at His next coming (1 Thess. 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:10).”

    Excerpts from Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah, 1890:

    Concerning this 'Kingdom of Heaven,' which was the great message of John, and the great work of Christ Himself, [1 Keim beautifully designates it: Das Lieblingswort Jesu.] we may here say, that it is the whole Old Testament sublimated, and the whole New Testament realised. The idea of it did not lie hidden in the Old, to be opened up in the New Testament, as did the mystery of its realisation. [a Rom. xvi 25, 26; Eph. i. 9; Col. i. 26, 27.] But this rule of heaven and Kingship of Jehovah was the very substance of the Old Testament; the object of the calling and mission of Israel; the meaning of all its ordinances, whether civil or religious; [2 If, indeed, in the preliminary dispensation these two can be well separated.] the underlying idea of all its institutions. [3 I confess myself utterly unable to understand, how anyone writing a History of the Jewish Church can apparently eliminate from it what even Keim designates as the 'treibenden Gedanken des Alten Testaments', those of the Kingdom and the King. A Kingdom of God without a King; a Theocracy without the rule of God; a perpetual Davidic Kingdom without a 'Son of David', these are antinomies (to borrow the term of Kant) of which neither the Old Testament, the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigraphic writings, nor Rabbinism were guility.] It explained alike the history of the people, the dealings of God with them, and the prospects opened up by the prophets. Without it the Old Testament could not be understood; it gave perpetuity to its teaching, and dignity to its representations. This constituted alike the real contrast between Israel and the nations of antiquity, and Israel's real title to distinction. Thus the whole Old Testament was the preparatory presentation of the rule of heaven and of the Kingship of its Lord.”

    “......an analysis of 119 passages in the New Testament where the expression 'Kingdom' occurs, shows that:

    .........it means the rule of God; [1 In this view the expression occurs thirty-four times, viz: St. Matt. vi. 33; xii. 28; xiii. 38; xix. 24; xxi. 31; St. Mark i. 14; x. 15, 23, 24, 25; xii. 34; St. Luke i. 33; iv. 43; ix. 11; x. 9, 11; xi. 20; xii. 31; xvii. 20, 21; xviii. 17, 24, 25, 29; St. John iii. 3; Acts i. 3; viii. 12; xx. 25; xxviii. 31; Rom. xiv. 17; 1 Cor. iv. 20; Col. iv. 11; 1 Thess. ii. 12; Rev.i.9

    ......which was manifested in and through Christ; [2 As in the following seventeen passages, viz.: St. Matt. iii. 2; iv. 17, 23; v. 3, 10; ix. 35; x. 7; St. Mark i. 15; xi. 10; St. Luke viii. 1; ix. 2; xvi. 16; xix. 12, 15; Acts i. 3; xxviii. 23; Rev. i. 9.]

    .......is apparent in 'the Church; [3 As in the following eleven passages: St. Matt. xi. 11; xiii. 41; xvi. 19; xviii. 1; xxi. 43; xxiii. 13; St. Luke vii. 28; St.John iii. 5; Acts i. 3; Col. i. 13; Rev. i. 9.]

    ........gradually develops amidst hindrances; [4 As in the following twenty-four passages: St. Matt. xi. 12; xiii. 11, 19, 24, 31, 33, 44, 45, 47, 52; xviii. 23; xx. 1; xxii. 2; xxv. 1, 14; St. Mark iv. 11, 26, 30; St. Luke viii. 10; ix. 62; xiii. 18, 20; Acts i. 3; Rev. i. 9.]

    .........is triumphant at the second coming of Christ ('the end') [5 As in the following twelve passages: St. Matthew xvi. 28; St. Mark ix. 1; St. Mark xvi. 28; St. Mark ix. 1; xv. 43; St. Luke ix. 27; xix. 11; xxi. 31; xxii. 16, 18; Acts i. 3; 2 Tim. iv. 1; Heb. xii. 28; Rev. i. 9.] ;

    .........and, finally, perfected in the world to come. [6 As in the following thirty-one passages: St. Matt. v. 19, 20; vii. 21; viii. 11; xiii. 43; xviii. 3; xxv. 34; xxvi. 29; St. Mark ix. 47; x. 14; xiv. 25; St. Luke vi. 20; xii. 32; xiii. 28, 29; xiv. 15; xviii. 16; xxii. 29; Acts i. 3; xiv. 22; 1 Cor. vi. 9, 10; xv. 24, 50; Gal. v. 21; Eph. v. 5; 2 Thess. i. 5; St. James ii. 5; 2
    Peter i. 11; Rev. i. 9; xii. 10.]”
     
  3. Luke2427

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    Extraordinary contribution. Thank you very much. These excerpts will be useful to me in further study and preaching on this subject at my church.
     
    #3 Luke2427, Jul 29, 2013
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  4. Aaron

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    Christ posed the question: When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

    I think the amil position is the true one.
     
  5. Mexdeaf

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    I am "Cmil"- as in when I see Christ, I know it is happening.
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Amen:smilewinkgrin:
     
  7. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    But there have been throughout history several comings. That language of the Lord "coming" often times refers to him coming in judgment. Even in the New Testament that is the case. Jesus warns the churches in Revelation:

    "...repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

    "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."

    "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

    Furthermore, the word "earth" there does not necessarily mean the whole planet earth.

    It means "the land."

    And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land1093 of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor , that shall rule my people Israel.

    Saying , Arise , and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land1093 of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

    And he arose , and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land1093 of Israel.

    But woe unto them that are with child , and to them that give suck , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land1093, and wrath upon this people.



    (1093 is the strong's number for the word translated "earth" in the passage you cite)


    Jesus is in Jerusalem. He has just given his discourse about the temple being destroyed which will bring about the end of the age of Judaistic Temple worship.

    When Jesus comes to the land of Jerusalem to destroy it, will he find many Jews with the kind of faith the woman had that he boasts on in that context?

    No.

    Jerusalem will be filled with zealots fighting to overthrow Rome and establish an earthly Jewish kingdom.

    I think that is the proper context for the passage "When I come in judgment upon Jerusalem will I find faith like this woman has in the land of Jerusalem."
     
  9. kyredneck

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    :thumbs: Agree!

    This is the passage everyone's hung up on and just knows that there 's only TWO comings:

    so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation [READ DELIVERANCE FROM THEIR PERSECUTORS]. Heb 9:28
    For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10:37

    Christ DID NOT tarry, he indeed came 'the second time' to the Hebrews and destroyed those miserable men of 'that generation' and let out the vineyard to others and wrought deliverance for all those they were persecuting. And this is the 'coming' Christ was referring to that Aaron quoted in the earlier post.

    I look for the 'NEXT' coming.
     
    #9 kyredneck, Jul 29, 2013
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  10. preachinjesus

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    I'm gonna hate myself for this...

    The challenge of Post-Millennialism is that it stands without substantive Scriptural support. Outside of a range of verses with contested context and varied interpretation, the Post-Mil option still has no helpful answer for the bleak picture portrayed in Revelation and the immanence of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

    Post-Mil was a highly touted option eschatologically for a long time. Yet this was in the midst of a time where eschatology wasn't as hot a topic as it is now. Of course, we would be remiss if we didn't note that 99 years ago today the shelling of Serbia by the Austro-Hungarians began in protest of the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand.

    About 95 years ago, the Post-Mil option ceased to be the predominate eschatological view given the desolation of WWI.

    Those historical facts notwithstanding, the larger challenge of the Post-Mil still remains...there is nearly zero Scriptural support for the system from direct, plain text readings of Scripture.
     
  11. AresMan

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    I tend now to lean amillennial with partial preterism.

    The problem I have with postmillennialism is that it is way too "collectivistic" for my understanding of both Scripture and political economy. It is most often associated with theonomy (or even "Christian reconstructionism") and paedobaptism. I am a hardcore individualist and my understanding of covenant theology from a Baptist perspective conflicts with how I view postmillennialism. I also have a hard time being "optimistic" about a "Christianized" world where the anticipation is a lot of unsaved people "fit in" while not being regenerate. It seems to me that the medieval Catholic church fits what one might expect from postmillennialism. ;)

    Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

    2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

    1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
    1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
    1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
     
  12. kyredneck

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    Imho, it seems to be the norm:

    43 Thou dost deliver me From the strivings of the people, Thou placest me for a head of nations, A people I have not known do serve me.
    44 At the hearing of the ear they hearken to me, Sons of a stranger feign obedience to me,
    45 Sons of a stranger fade away, And are slain out of their close places.
    46 Jehovah liveth -- and blessed is my rock, And exalted is the God of my salvation.
    47 God -- who is giving vengeance to me, And He subdueth peoples under me,
    48 My deliverer from mine enemies, Above my withstanders Thou raisest me, From a man of violence dost deliver me.
    49 Therefore I confess Thee among nations, O Jehovah, And to Thy name I sing praise,
    50 Magnifying the salvation of His king, And doing kindness to His anointed, To David, and to his seed -- unto the age! Ps 18 YLT

    3 Say to God, `How fearful are Thy works, By the abundance of Thy strength, Thine enemies feign obedience to Thee.
    4 All the earth do bow to Thee, They sing praise to Thee, they praise Thy name.` Selah.
    5 Come ye, and see the works of God, Fearful acts toward the sons of men.
    6 He hath turned a sea to dry land, Through a river they pass over on foot, There do we rejoice in Him.
    7 Ruling by His might to the age, His eyes among the nations do watch, The refractory exalt not themselves. Selah. Ps 66 YLT

    1 And seven women shall take hold of one man in that day, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name; take thou away our reproach. Isa 4:1

    23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. Zech 8:23

    17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king`s commandment and his decree came, the Jews had gladness and joy, a feast and a good day. And many from among the peoples of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews was fallen upon them. Esther 8:17

    29 Happy art thou, O Israel: Who is like unto thee, a people saved by Jehovah, The shield of thy help, And the sword of thy excellency! And thine enemies shall submit themselves unto thee; And thou shalt tread upon their high places. Dt 33:29

    24 So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the peoples of the land, that they might do with them as they would. Neh 9:24
     
    #12 kyredneck, Jul 30, 2013
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  13. kyredneck

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    Well, no one has molested you yet....maybe you'll 'get away with it' this time.
     
  14. preachinjesus

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    Perhaps, the day is still young...;)
     
  15. Baptist Believer

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    Fun fact. My grandfather was in the crowd, watching the motorcade of Franz Ferdinand go by. Ferdinand was assassinated just down the street from where he was standing. He was 10 years old at the time.
     
  16. convicted1

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  17. pinoybaptist

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    :laugh::thumbs:
     
  18. agedman

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    The thinking that the world will just get better and better and one day Christ will just waltz in and be given the kingdoms without a fight is counter to Scriptures.

    That some would actually believe such is truly sad, yet not to be unexpected.

    At my age, it is no longer an issue to argue over.

    Christ will come, I will ascend after those buried, and you can look for me in my new body when He returns at the BEGINNING of the Millennial reign.

    Those who desire to endure the years of tribulation may want to do what evangelist Jim Lyons suggests in the sermon, "What to do if you miss the rapture" - by as many cases of strong drink that can be found and have at it - for such are with no hope.
     
  19. AresMan

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    Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
    Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


    I'm sorry, but I do not see this mythical golden age prior to Christ's return.

    Our hope is not in a coming golden age of quasi-Christianity. We groan until the redemption of our body that happens at Christ's return.
     
  20. convicted1

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