POST mill.....Amill

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Ken Gentry offered this on facebook...if any Amill wants to offer on it...go ahead...what do you agree with, where do you think it is off?

    Any postmill can offer some more on it.


    1. Historically amillennialism has tended to be pessimistic in terms of the question of widespread, long-lasting cultural success for the Christian faith. That is, regarding these:

    a) As a system of gospel proclamation it teaches that the gospel of Christ will not exercise any majority influence in the world before Christ’s return;

    b) As a system of historical understanding it, in fact, holds the Bible teaches there are prophetically determined, irresistible trends downward toward chaos in the outworking and development of history; and therefore

    b) As a system for the promotion of Christian discipleship it dissuades the Church from anticipating and laboring for wide-scale success in influencing the world for Christ during this age.

    My debates with Strimple (Three Views on the Millennium), Gaffin (formal debate in Elkton, MD) and Fowler (in West. Theol. Jrnl.) confirm this to me.


    Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond (ed. by Darrell Bock)
    Presents three views on the millennium: progressive dispensationalist,
    amillennialist, and reconstructionist postmillennialist viewpoints.
    Includes separate responses to each view
    See more study materials at: www.KennethGentry.com


    2. It seems to me that the verses an amill would want to use in order to underscore his optimism are those that endorse a postmillennial perspective. Unless, of course, he is optimistic on grounds other than direct biblical revelation.

    Please understand that my comment is not meant to be pejorative (as some frequently take it). I am simply highlighting the key difference between amillennialism and postmillennialism.

    Hope this is helpful. May the Lord bless your present studies in eschatology

    Read more at http://postmillennialism.com/optimistic-amill-v-postmill/#rX3zwKF6pyofk838.99
     
  2. convicted1

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    Here's how this "amill" sees the end of time....


    I see the world not getting better, but worse....the love of many shall wax gross. This doesn't negate the gospel proclamation that is going out throughout the world, but that the worldwide rejection of the call to be reconciled is a confirmation that the end of time is fastly approaching.
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Once I left the dispensational camp I thought I was an "optimistic" Amillenial person meaning that we are to be faithful and proclaim Christ worldwide and the gospel is always victorious if the sinner believes it, or does not believe it as long as we faithfully proclaim it.

    14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

    15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

    16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

    17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


    I still believe this...but now I am looking at scriptures that indicate a worldwide reception of saving truth.....things can appear to be bad looking at world events, but who is to say we are not still the early church?

    what if the lord does not return for 74,000 yrs...think of the multitudes of persons who could be redeemed :thumbs::thumbs:

    Paul wrote that in his day, and yet we are still here in our day, millions more have been saved since Paul wrote that. [erhaps he warned them of the coming persecution and many falling into apostasy at that time.What makes you think that verse was two thousand yrs later?

    Those kind of verses I was taught as a premill were to moved forward to our time I was taught,
    and yet I do not see clear teaching of this moving forward...like the verse

    4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

    Why could this not be speaking of the first century?
    when was 1 tim written;

    - When was it written? Most likely between AD 62 and 66. It's likely that Paul was in Macedonia when he wrote this letter (see 1 Timothy 1:3). what if he warned them of the coming destruction of the end of the jewish age, the destruction of the temple that would come upon them?
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Jul 31, 2014
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  4. Yeshua1

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  5. go2church

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    Much like convicted1, I don't see a better or worse in the future. I also don't see amill as being decidedly pessimistic. How could it be? Both good and evil continue to exist along side each other until Jesus returns. Now some see a great tribulation before the return of Jesus, but that is already a reality of today. I don't know if you would call it worse, though with some imagination I guess I could come up with a "worse". Though I bet if you talked to Christians in Syria today, they would describe what they are going through as a great tribulation.

    The point for me has always been to stay plugged into the now, be faithful now, be obedient now. Regardless of what comes I want to be faithful. I don't need a time on earth when things are "utopia", Jesus is enough now.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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  7. Iconoclast

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    if you read David Englesma for example he chides postmill guys for not preparing the church for hard times ahead...he sees post mill as a dangerous teaching.

    http://www.prca.org/articles/amillennialism.html

    An Introduction

    Professor David J. Engelsma


    Response to the editorial, "Jewish Dreams" (the Standard Bearer, Jan. 15, 1995), has made clear how deep and entrenched are the inroads of postmillennialism into Reformed circles. The editorial, written at the beginning of a new year, reminded Reformed Christians that our only hope, according to the Bible, is the second coming of the Lord Jesus. It sketched in broad outline the traditional, creedal Reformed conception of the last days: abounding lawlessness; widespread apostasy; the Antichrist; and great tribulation for the true church. It gave a warning against the false hope that is known as postmillennialism, quoting a Reformed creed that condemned "Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment."

    Against this Reformed doctrine of the endtime with its condemnation of postmillennialism have come vehement objections. The objections arise from conservative Reformed and Presbyterian men and churches.

    One objector asked for a defense of amillennialism from Scripture. He also confidently asserted that the number of Reformed amillennialists is steadily decreasing, suggesting that the reason for this is the irrefutable arguments of the postmillennialists.

    It is true that the postmillennialists are very vocal and aggressive in promoting their theory of the last days. Nor is this true only of those associated with the movement known as "Christian Reconstruction." Also the men of the influential Banner of Truth publishing group vigorously and incessantly push postmillennialism, usually in connection with their expectation of a coming great revival of Christianity.

    It is also true that there is little or no defense of amillennialism in the Reformed press. Exposure and condemnation of postmillennialism as false and dangerous doctrine are unheard of.

    Reformed and Presbyterian churches and officebearers have apparently decided to tolerate postmillennialism. This is tacit sanctioning of the error. Postmillennialism is, at the very least, a legitimate option for Reformed Christians. It is, therefore, no wonder that these churches and ministers are unable to respond to the sharp attack on amillennialism by the postmillennialists. Much less can they take the offensive against the error.

    Postmillennialism wins by default.

    Error carries the day because truth is kept from the field.

    The notion of some amillennialists that amillennialism and postmillennialism are two valid options for Reformed Christians and that the silence of the amillennialists will result in amillennialism and postmillennialism dwelling together in blest accord is silly. The aggressive postmillennialists know better than this and intend, in fact, to wipe amillennialism out, root and branch. They have given the Reformed amillennialists fair warning. Gary North has written:

    There are three main rival views of evangelical eschatology - four, considering dispensationalism. Either all are in error, or all but one is. It is always the task of Trinitarian theologians to discover what is biblically correct. When a theologian has concluded that a particular view is correct, he should seek to make his discovery a test of orthodoxy - if not in his own era, if that is premature, then someday. The goal of the Church should always be an increase in confessional precision. A large part of the Church's confession deals with eschatology. Orthodoxy means straight speaking. One cannot speak straight with a four-way tongue.

    It is time to stop believing in theological pluralism as anything more than a temporary stopgap. It is time to reject the idea of the equal ultimacy of incompatible theological positions. Premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism are theologically incompatible. God cannot be pleased with all three. At least two of them should be discarded as heretical, if not today, then before Christ comes in final judgment.



    The quotation does serve to show that postmillennialism is not content peacefully to coexist with amillennialism, contrary to the thinking of the Reformed amillennialists who refuse to speak out in defense of amillennialism. In this and a few subsequent editorials, I like to do my small part in defending and promoting the biblical doctrine of the last days, namely, Reformed amillennialism. This will necessarily involve demonstrating that postmillennialism is a false doctrine, as well as a vain and dangerous hope. Let us have the positions clearly in our mind.

    Both are teachings about the last days. Both instruct the church as to what she can expect in the future before the second coming of Jesus Christ.

    They differ radically
    .

    Reformed amillennialism teaches the church, that is, us who believe and our children, to expect increasing lawlessness in the world, apostasy from the truth in the churches, the establishment of the kingdom of Antichrist over the entire world, and great tribulation for all those who fear God and keep His commandments. To such a world, thus fully developed in sin, will Christ return.
    Postmillennialism in Reformed and Presbyterian circles holds out quite a different prospect. Gradually, the gospel will convert the majority of the world's inhabitants. True Christians will possess political power in every nation, controlling all aspects of the life of the nation so that there will be a genuinely Christian culture. This will be the "Christianizing," as they put it, of the world. The human race will obey the law of God, at least outwardly (for many will remain unconverted). There will be earthly peace worldwide. The result will be unprecedented material prosperity. Poverty will disappear. Disease will be checked. Crime will be virtually non-existent.

    Coming is a "golden age." It will last at least for a thousand years, perhaps a hundred thousand years.

    Christ will get an earthly victory in history.

    This earthly victory will be the "Messianic kingdom" in its full splendor.

    At this point, the postmillennialists differ among themselves.

    Some have Jesus returning to the grand earthly kingdom. Others, looking hard at the disconcerting testimony of Revelation 20:7ff., that at the very end Satan will unleash an all-out assault on the church, predict that the peaceable earthly kingdom of Christ will suffer revolution at the end from the ungodly who were only submitting outwardly.

    In either case, the second coming of Christ will follow hard upon the "golden" millennial age.

    Merely to describe the two positions is to squelch the inevitable protest from some, "What difference does it make? Must we argue about such things? Do not both the amillennialists and the postmillennialists believe in Jesus? Cannot we live together in harmony?"

    Postmillennialism tells the Reformed saints that apostasy, Antichrist, and persecution are past. It calls them to take power in the world. It assures them of future earthly ease

    It leaves the people unprepared for the struggle that lies ahead for the church, the fiercest struggle that the church has ever faced. It renders the people oblivious to the gathering storm at this very moment. The abounding lawlessness in Western society, for example, does not for the postmillennialist herald the "lawless one," the "man of sin," of II Thessalonians 2. It is merely the prelude to the collapse of ungodly society so that the saints can take control.

    In Ezekiel 33, the Lord instructs the watchman to signal the approach of the enemy against His people, warning that the watchman who fails to blow the trumpet of alarm shall be guilty of the blood of the people.

    Reformed amillennialism sees the enemy of the church approaching. It sees this in light of the Word of God, Holy Scripture. It is giving the warning. No opposition from dreamers of coming earthly peace will stop its trumpet.

    As for those who refuse to heed the warning, their blood will be upon their own heads.
     
  8. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Pastor, theologian and biblical translator Hans Bietenhard wrote:
    Reason enough to reject anything teaching other than premillennialism, in my opinion. But, that's not the subject of the thread, so I will bow out having said it.
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    That's fine Dconn....I am wide open on this,,,[sort of:laugh:]

    Dconn...what if any postmill teaching have you looked at?

    how about amill?
     
  10. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Dominion & Common Grace: The Biblical Basis of Progress by Gary North. I read that just a couple years after my salvation in 1993. About the same time, I read The Bible and the Future by Anthony A. Hoekema. I read a couple others, too, but those are the ones I remember.

    I began the quest to understand the End Times on my own, without any influence from pastors or teachers. I had simply heard the term "End Times" in sermons and Bible studies without any extensive context. I set out to figure it out for myself. As I've shared with you before, Icon, that's how I've always approached Bible study. I read it for myself before seeking outside opinions. I began with as in depth a study as I was capable of at the time, and was looking for answers and interpretations.

    Neither of those works, or the others, impressed me from what I was reading. I had no biblical background on which to base an opinion as to whether to read the Word literally or from an assumption that some of it was figurative in nature. So I read it like I read the newspaper: What it said is what it meant. From that viewpoint, it is difficult to accept what the "posts" and "a's" say.

    I was leaning toward a literal interpretation, that these events would actually occur as they were written. It took me years to wade through Revelation, to look up specific references, history, culture, society of the times but in the end I saw no reason to abandon the idea of a literal, chronological fulfillment of John's and Daniel's prophecies. They melded together perfectly, from what I could read, and over time that interpretation strengthens.

    Then I came across The Millennial Kingdom: A Basic Text in Premillennial Theology by John F. Walvoord. My own off-and-on studies were confirmed in his writing, and in doing further study based on clues I got from him regarding early church teaching, I found that the truth is just as Bietenhard wrote in 1987: Premillennial teaching was the belief of the early church, even the Nicolaitans. Some of the latter, anyway. Now I realize, just because early church theologians and pastors believed an interpretation doesn't make it right, but for the most part I've found that's a good rule of thumb. I'm speaking of those before Augustine.

    That was sufficient for me, given the conclusions I'd already reached myself.
     
    #10 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jul 31, 2014
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  11. Yeshua1

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    The reduction of Christianity would be optomistic post mil, correct?

    And have read the works of Reformed theologians on A mil viewpoints...
     

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