Post Rapture Salvation?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by boogie, Feb 7, 2002.

  1. boogie

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    Here's one for you: Will people who heard the gospel preached prior to the rapture be able to be saved during the tribulation? Give Biblical reasons.
     
  2. Ray Berrian

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    Truthseeker,

    Revelation 7:13 an Elder already in Heaven answers the Apostle John's question as to who the ‘. . . great multitude was that no man could number, of all nations . . .' In the New Testament at times the writers will refer to ‘tribulation,' and at other times the Great Tribulation. Many Christians even in our 21st century have ‘tribulation,' but this reference in Revelation and Matthew indicates a unique designation of time, the Great Tribulation. This is the case in Revelation 7. [Notice also, Matthew 24:21 & Daniel 12:1] After the taking away of the church into Heaven there will be a time of Great Tribulation. The antichrist will make people take a mark in the right hand or forehead if they want to buy or sell products necessary to life. [Revelation 13:15-18]. In vs. 15 those who will not take the mark will be considered in alliance with the true God--Jesus. Their lives will be taken from them. In Bible words, ‘as many as would not worship the image of the beast [the antichrist] should be killed.' These souls will be gathered into Heaven as marked in Revelation 7:9. This event, the Great Tribulation, will take place before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    Dr. John F. Walvoord, in his book, "Major Bible Prophecies," says on page 279 at the bottom, says, ‘The pretribulationist view is also supported by the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:1-8 and in 14:1-5, where the twelve tribes of Israel are said to be protected in a special way through the Great Tribulation. The fact that they are referred to as Jewish people and not as the church is another indication that God has completed His work for the church, [my inclusion Romans 11:25 E ‘until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.']composed of both Jews and Gentiles, and now is following his separate programs for Israel and the Gentiles even though salvation is the same for both.'

    This paragraph above, will give you a background as to when and why these people were killed for their belief in Jesus even after the rapture of the church into Heaven.

    This truth is again documented in holy writ for us to understand in Revelation 20:4 where we learn one more new idea. These ‘ . . . souls were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God . . .'

    In Revelation 7:9 we are told that the number of martyrs was too great to number coming from all nations. This Great Tribulation will cover the entire world as humankind comes under the treacherous and unprecedented authority of the antichrist, the one world leader of the future. Notice, this magnitude of world-wide murder, by way of beheading, has not yet appeared on the human scene.

    In answer to your question, yes, there will be people saved after Christ takes His church into Heaven. One of the penalties for denying Christ in the inner life now, is martyrdom in the future, if anyone can fathom how awful the future is going to become.

    "Ray"
     
  3. Miss Bobbie

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Truthseeker:
    Here's one for you: Will people who heard the gospel preached prior to the rapture be able to be saved during the tribulation? Give Biblical reasons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I've wanted to ask the same question. Dr. David Jeremiah says no, those who heard the gospel before rapture will NOT be saved afterward. He cites 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as scriptural back-up. I sort of understand it, but not well enough to explain it. [​IMG]
     
  4. Bro. Curtis

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    Good Subject.

    The above verse seems to mean that people who ignored salvation before, will ignore it then.

    I always thought that when the unsaved see their christian friends start disappearing, they would fall on their knees right there. But after that verse.....maybe not ?
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    I greatly respect Dr. David Jeremiah and his ministry.

    My understanding of this chapter is that in II Thessalonians 2:1 & 2 deals with the ‘ . . . gathering together unto Him . . . ' meaning that the church is awaiting the coming of the Lord. [I Thess. 4:17] In verse 3 ‘that day shall not come' suggests the seizing of the church into Heaven. Verse 3 is the antichrist ‘the man of sin' who will actually sit in the Great Tribulation Temple. The ultra-conservative Jews have the cornerstone already prepared for their Temple. Verse 7 deals with the restraining activity of the Holy Spirit during this age that will be removed at the rapture. Verse 8 acknowledges the fact that the antichrist will in the future reveal himself. The One greater than him will ‘consume him with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.' This is the Second Coming of Jesus when He brings His church/saints with Him. [Revelation 19:14-21]

    It is true that many living on the earth during the Great Tribulation will solidify their hatred of God and His power to save them. God will ‘send them a strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.' These souls will be damned by God. This, however, does not detract from the fact that multiple, millions will die as martyrs because they know they will go to Hell if they bow and worship the antichrist. How did these people from all nations know about this line of eternal demarcation? They will know about this perimeter because they were people who knew much of the Gospel or had some other source with which to deny the mark in the right hand or the forehead. While God will blind those who hate Him, He will welcome into Heaven who reject, unequivocally the suggested false-truth that the antichrist is God.

    Respectfully,

    Dr. Berrian
     
  6. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Truthseeker:
    Here's one for you: Will people who heard the gospel preached prior to the rapture be able to be saved during the tribulation? Give Biblical reasons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Since the tribulation occurs prior to the Second Coming, and the "rapture" occurs at the Second Coming, the answer is, "YES". :D
     
  7. Gina B

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    Chris? Good answer, but is that you? lol. I'm getting my BB people and what they believe all confuseled.
    da Gina
     
  8. Christopher

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    No group of people are going to be saved during the Great Tribulation except for the Jews.

    "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." [Rom. 11:25]

    The "fulness of the Gentiles" would not be the fulness if all of the Gentiles were not already saved prior the Great Tribulation.

    -Christopher
     
  9. ddavis

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    thats good christopher, this has been brought up before looking forward to see how it is answered in this lihgt. :D :D

    oh gina, chris is still there rapture/second coming at the same time?

    [ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: ddavis ]
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    Christopher,

    I agree with you about the fact that there will be a time 'when the fulness of the Gentiles will be brought in . . .' [Romans 11:25]. On the other hand, in Revelation 7:9 we are told about 'a great multitude, from all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues . . . 'which will enter Heaven. Different nations suggests that not just Jews from Israel and New York City will be brought to everlasting life through their martyrdom during the Great Tribulation era of time.

    "Ray"
     
  11. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
    Chris? Good answer, but is that you? lol. I'm getting my BB people and what they believe all confuseled.
    da Gina
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Aye, Gina, tis me. I believe the "rapture", resurrection, Second Coming, and final battle are all one event - on the LAST DAY. (Jn 6:39-44) ;)
     
  12. Siegfried

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    Chris,

    If you're right, I guess we'll have to order our marriage supper of the Lamb "to go." ;)

    Ray,

    I couldn't agree with you more, especially with your post about 2 Thess. 2. I'll try to add a little to it.

    While I haven't heard Dr. Jeremiah's view on the passage, the one I've heard all my life that seems to be similar is that after the rapture, those who had rejected the Gospel before will be unable to be saved because of the strong delusion. This interpretation sees the delusion as an influence that is not active now, but will be after the rapture.

    I'm not convinced by that interpretation. While some of the major translations (NASB, KJV, and I don't know about the NIV) translate pempei as a future (shall/will send), the word is actually a present. Other translations (RSV, NRSV) translate it as a simple present (God sends . . .). Now, I know there is such a thing as a futuristic present, but I don't think that needs to be the case here.

    The reason is that God always sends strong delusion to those who willfully and persistently reject the truth. Romans 1 makes that very clear. I believe the same principle could be in effect in 2 Thess. 2.

    I'm not denying that it may be intensified, especially with the influence of the Church and the Holy Spirit removed. I just reject the notion that 2 Thess. 2 is a proof text for the idea that no one who heard the Gospel can be saved after the Rapture.
     
  13. superdave

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    I am pre-trib, pre-mil, just FYI,

    Christopher,
    The 144,000 will all be jews, but the converts that they reach will be from every tribe and nation, that verse is very clear.

    ___________________

    I don't know of any proof texts to support those who have heard not being able to be saved, and I don't think the II Thess passage is sufficently clear to be dogmatic about it, but even if someone has not heard the truth of the Gospel, are they not all under the witness of God's creation? Are they not responsible for that knowledge? If they die before the rapture, are they responsible for their unbelief given that they have never been enlightened to the gift of Life? If so, than those who have not heard or believed at the rapture will have already "made the choice" if you believe in that stuff, and are as responsible for their unbelief as those who were clearly communicated the Gospel. So, if you believe that only those who have not heard will be able to accept Christ after the rapture, do you also believe that those who die in unbelief before the tribulation, and never heard the gospel, are not responsible for their unbelief, and will be excused from their sin? Otherwise, why are they the only group who gets a second chance. OR will those who God has predestined to grace be able to believe despite the strong delusions of AntiChrist? I would be much more willing to believe the latter, having a fairly strong view of the sovereignty of God, and recognizing that he is just.
     
  14. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Siegfried:
    Chris,

    If you're right, I guess we'll have to order our marriage supper of the Lamb "to go." ;)

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not at all. It occurs in the New Heavens and New Earth - our eternal home :D
     
  15. ddavis

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    ok fellas, then why not waite till the tribulation to accept Christ? didnt paul say today is the accepted day of salvation another question who is the trib. for? cant for the gentils because God said he would deal with HIS people for 490 years speaking of the hebrews, 387 of those years stop at the cross with the last 7 being the trib. so that would make it for the jewish people, and the 144,000 being preachers to preach to the nation of israel. also does the verse in revel. 7:13 without any dout rule out that the many from the tribes and nations are not from the 12 tribes of israel that were scattered in 70 a.d.? it was israel as a nation that rejected the messiah not the gentils.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Siegfried,

    I liked very much want you said in your writing. I needed to be reminded, as you said, that when people continually reject Christ and His Gospel they bring on a 'strong delusion.' That is a very sad state of affairs for those caught in the web.

    Ray
     
  17. Siegfried

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    Thanks, Ray.

    ddavis,

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ok fellas, then why not waite till the tribulation to accept Christ? didnt paul say today is the accepted day of salvation <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    1. Because you might die before the tribulation.
    2. Because if you wait, then you've got to endure the tribulation.
    3. Because, as you said, now is the day. I'm not saying anyone should wait. In fact, I'm arguing that they are playing with fire--literally. I'm just not convinced that they will not have any more chances to be saved.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> another question who is the trib. for? cant for the gentils because God said he would deal with HIS people for 490 years speaking of the hebrews, 387 of those years stop at the cross with the last 7 being the trib. so that would make it for the jewish people, and the 144,000 being preachers to preach to the nation of israel. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think I mostly agree with you, although I don't quite follow your math. Also the Trib will definitely bring judgment to the whole world, not just Jews. If the judgment is extended, I don't see why salvation can't be, too. As far as the 144,000, I think we get the idea that they are witnesses from the fact that the next verse (7:13) talks about the great multitude. I don't know of anywhere that Scripture precisely defines who they preach too.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> also does the verse in revel. 7:13 without any dout rule out that the many from the tribes and nations are not from the 12 tribes of israel that were scattered in 70 a.d.? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I tend to think so. The term for "all nations" is one that usually, if not always, refers to the Gentiles as distinct from the Jews. I think God always sees his people as distinct from "the nations" even when they were scattered. I'd have to do more study to be dogmatic.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> it was israel as a nation that rejected the messiah not the gentils. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    True, but the Gentiles do it as individuals. I'm not following your point.
     
  18. ddavis

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    siegfried, sorry for the slip of the keys, 483 years was meant.
    my point is that the trib. has to be for israel, as the Lord will use it to bring them back to him. also do you feel that romans 2:14-16 would play into them not being able to be saved? do you have any scpriture showing they will have another chance for salvation? :confused:
     
  19. Siegfried

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    I don't think the Romans 2 passage has anything to do with the Tribulation. The point of that passage is that all men will be held responsible for sinning against God, with or without knowledge of Mosaic law, because all men have "the work of the law written in their hearts."

    I don't have any Scripture to prove that there will be a second opportunity available. I don't think anyone in any point of human history has the right to expect another chance if he rejects any opportunity to be saved. That's where I agree with you about now being the appointed time, according to Paul.

    I'm just arguing that many Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation, and 2 Thess. 2 doesn't prove that those who've heard the Gospel before will not have a second chance.
     
  20. ddavis

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    agreed,thanks
     

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