Post-trib, Pre-mill Rapture = 2nd coming and saints taken to heaven

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 19, 2016.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Darrell C said:
    You seem to imply this in regards to the Rapture. At that time the Church will be, as a whole, glorified, their bodies being resurrected into glorified form.




    It is in fact that every thing - the "dead in Christ rise First" 1 Thess 4 - at the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:5


    It is in deed the first resurrection. First that is coming in the future to 1Thess 4.
    First that is coming in the future of Rev 20 ...

    First that is coming in the future of those NT writers.

    True.

    In Rev 20 the saints take part in the first resurrection and the wicked take part in the 2nd resurrection 1000 years later.

    Rev 20
    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

    No one is raptured in Rev 11 - in Rev 11, 12, 13 the 1260 years = 42 months of years = 3.5 times of prophetic apocalytpic years = 1260 years. All three chapters are speaking of the dark ages - 1260 years of dark ages persecution -- this has already happened.

    And so also in Dan 9 the 70 weeks of years - is 490 sola years on earth in that same day-for-year model pointing to the first coming of Christ. Accurately predicting it in fact. The method is proven.

    Agreed. the 2nd coming of Rev 19... the FIRST resurrection of Rev 20 -- this is what starts the 1000 year millennium. And as Rev 19 says "The REST were killed" -- that is those not killed in the armies that come against Christ in Rev -- the "rest" -- all the rest. All the wicked... killed in Rev 19 at the 2nd coming.

    And as 1Thess 4 points out - this is also when the saints are taken to heaven - raptured.

    The "dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1Thess 4 at the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:5-6. And this starts the clock for the 10000 years - the millennium. A desolate earth and the saints in heaven.



    Not according to Rev 20.

    Rev 20 the "REST of the dead did not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years". The wicked are raised at the end of the millennium.
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Sorry, wish I had known you'd started this, I would have put the other responses here.


    God bless.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Am adding that response here -





    In Rev 11 we have the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints - it draws to an end in 1798 when the Pope is taken captive by the French. The Last 10 years (ten days) of that period - France declares in favor of atheist and licentiousness -- a Christian nation declares formally for atheism.

    In Rev 11 they are called "Sodom" and "Egypt". -- Egyptian Pharoah represents the kind of Atheism that says "who is God that I should serve him?".

    And Sodom in France - was pretty self explanatory.

    That same 1260 year period of "dark ages" is described in Daniel 7, in Revelation 11, in Revelation 12 and in Revelation 13. There is a reason that this is such a big deal in the Bible.

    These are not two men that die physically - but it is a persecution of Christians where over 50 million are killed.Unsurpassed in all of previous history.

    In Rev 20 the saints take part in the first resurrection and the wicked take part in the 2nd resurrection 1000 years later.

    Rev 20
    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
    Click to expand...


    ???? what in the world are you talking about??

    "The rest of the dead" refers to the unbelievers/lost.

    The saints come to life in the "First resurrection" - Rev 20:2-5 and the 'rest of the dead' - includes all the dead that are not the saints.... .come to life at then end of the 1000 years.

    Unbelievers are not raised in that post-millennial resurrection at the end of the thousand years, because Rev 20:4-6 says that it is only those in the FIRST resurrection - over whom the "second death has no power".

    All the wicked raised at the end of the Millennium - and over them - the "second death" DOES has power..

    All bible time prophecy is contiguous as we see in Daniel 9:1-8 the seventy years of Jeremiah mentioned by Daniel - that 70 year prophecy timeline - all contiguous.

    The 490 year prophetic timeline in Dan 9 also contiguous and after 383 weeks Christ is baptized then in the midst of that next week of years (which of course is contiguous with the previous part of the timeline) -- Christ is crucified. And at the end of course - Stephen is stoned and the prediction and probation allotted to literal Israel ends.



    The 1260 dark ages already happened.

    No text says that the 2nd coming happened at the end of the dark ages. or at the end of the 1260 years.


     
  4. BobRyan

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    I don't think I got all of the post was copy-pasted right - but -- that was at least a stab at it. :)
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    It's okay, Bob, what is there is enough to work with, I get the points you are raising.


    God bless.
     
  6. Darrell C

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    Again, the Seventy Weeks of Daniel that are specific to the Tribulation cannot be converted with the formula you are using. Doesn't matter how bad you want that 1260 days to be years, we destroy the Prophecy of Daniel 9 by doing that.

    It will be, just like the first 69 Weeks...a 7 year period.

    I think I will present this first...


    Daniel 12:7-13

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.



    Daniel is speaking about the same event here that he is speaking about in Daniel 9, and it is unrelated to the captivity of Daniel's people...


    Daniel 9

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

    2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.



    The Seventieth Week...


    Daniel 9:24-27

    King James Version (KJV)


    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    ...is separate from the seventy years, and is inclusive of the details that are presented. Nothing in Scripture justifies changing this to years, it is impossible, because we see the first 69 weeks as periods of seven years, and the final Week must conform to the Prophecy itself.

    And this period is clearly defined as being split into two parts, by v.27. That is what he is told about in Daniel 12...

    ...the last half of the Tribulation.

    It begins when Antichrist breaks his confirmation of the Covenant (which for Daniel's People would be the Covenant of Law) by ceasing Temple Service and desecrating the Temple by standing in it himself:


    2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

    King James Version (KJV)


    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    This correlates to Christ's warning:



    Matthew 24:14-16

    King James Version (KJV)


    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:



    This is the mid-point of the Tribulation at which time Antichrist is empowered for 42 months, which is of necessity the same amount of time given to the Two Witnesses:


    Revelation 11:2-3

    King James Version (KJV)


    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.



    Now look at the correlation between Daniel's Prophecy and that of Revelation:



    Revelation 13:4-5

    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.



    The point is this, Bob: there is going to be 1260 days from the time the Temple is made desolate, and Daniel gives us two more periods which extend it.

    Again, consider:


    Daniel 12:7-13

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.



    There is a period which adds 30 days, then another which extends it to an additional 75 days, and...

    ...there is no way to make this period anything other than a 3 1/2 years period. You can't obscure a time, times, and half a time. You can't obscure days that are specifically given.


    Continued...
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Sorry about the smiley, forgot to remove the semi-colon, so just know it was not put there intentionally.

    God bless.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    There has never been a Christian Nation and there will not be until the Millennial Kingdom. Rome made that mistake in thinking they were.


    Bob, the City in view is Jerusalem, not Rome and France:


    Revelation 11:8

    King James Version (KJV)

    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.




    Revelation 11:8

    King James Version (KJV)

    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



    The Two Witnesses are not killed in Rome or France.



    Not really relevant to the text.

    The City in view is Jerusalem, this is where these two men are killed, resurrected, and caught up to Heaven.

    They are Raptured.


    Continued...
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Not at all self explanatory...France has absolutely zero relevance to Revelation 11, other than they are part of the world which rejoices when these two, who will torment them as well...are killed.

    Again...Antichrist cannot kill symbolic elements such as the Word of God (i.e., as some teach, Two Witnesses=two Testaments), and the Word of God has no need to be resurrected.

    These are two literal men who are empowered for forty two months, which is 3 1/2 years. When they die Antichrist begins his rampage, which also lasts for forty two months, which is 12 60 days (not years), which is 3 1/2 years, which is precisely the half of the Seventieth Week Daniel prophesied.


    Its only a big deal for those that impose such a meaning into these texts.

    For example, we have seen a forty two month period in Revelation 11 and 13, let's look at the period of 1260 days in Revelation 12:


    Revelation 12

    King James Version (KJV)


    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.




    While some might be tempted to create a formula based on Peter's statement, we can see this same event referred to again:



    Revelation 12:13-14

    King James Version (KJV)

    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.



    You just cant work over a Millennia into a time, times, and half a time, particularly when Daniel is so clear this means 3 1/2 years based on days.


    Continued...
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Sure they are:


    Revelation 11

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

    6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

    11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



    The only reason to deny that these are men, clearly made known to be by the description of the events that unfold...is if our Eschatology demands they be something else.

    So I ask you, what could they be other than two men who are Prophets empowered by God for forty two months?


    Continued...
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Yet Christ speaks of a time that centers around the Abomination of Desolation.

    That didn't take place in the Dark Ages, Bob.

    The death toll in the Tribulation alone (not counting the Sheep and Goat Judgment, Matthew 25), with the population as it is right now...will be around 4 Billion if the Tribulation were to begin today.

    50 million is a drop in the bucket compared to the death toll that will take place in the Tribulation.

    In the opening of the Fourth Seal we see...


    Revelation 6:7-8

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

    8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.



    ...one quarter of the earth's population given over to the power of this Judgment.

    In the Sixth Trumpet Judgment we see...


    Revelation 9:13-15

    King James Version (KJV)


    13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

    14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

    15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.



    ...a third of mankind destroyed.

    If we start with 8 billion (to make the math easy) and see a 1/4 destroyed, this leaves 6 billion. If we then see a third of that population destroyed, this leave 4 billion.

    One half of the earth's population destroyed with a seven year period, and this is only the Second Woe.

    The earth has never seen anything on this scale since Christ's Ascension. The worst destruction I know of has come from the millions destroyed by Atheism, which is more than double, at least, than the fifty million you speak of in regards to Rome and France.


    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    I agree it is Saints raised, but...these are Tribulation Martyrs only.

    As I mentioned before, Bob, if this is the Rapture, we either have to deny the thousand years altogether (as our a-millennial brethren do), or, deny that all unbelievers are destroyed prior to the Millennial Kingdom.

    If we agree that all unbelievers are destroyed, then we must also agree that if both living and dead Saints (and I am not talking about the lost dead) are raised in the First Resurrection listed in Revelation 20, because if we do not...that leaves one of us lacking for where these people...


    Revelation 20:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


    If the First Resurrection is the Rapture of the Church...

    ...there are no physical believers left on the earth from whence the unbelievers listed here come from.

    The Post-Tribulation Rapture is just a bad position to take, because it brings far too many conflicts into play, this being one of them.

    But if we consider the teaching of Christ in Matthew 24-25, we see a timeline given us that describes the judgment of the nations when He returns (and I believe this falls into that 75 day surplus Daniel gives us) and we see clearly that his teaching that no-one who is not born again (believers) enter into that Kingdom.

    The unbelievers that are found in Revelation 20:7-9 are the offspring of the physical believers that populate the Millennial Kingdom. They are the Sheep. They are the ones who are not taken in judgment per Christ's teaching here:


    Luke 17:34-37

    King James Version (KJV)


    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    This is the supper of the Great God seen in Revelation 19 and Ezekiel 39. And I think I gave those passages already, if not, be happy to supply them, but, I do recommend you take these into consideration.

    The above correlates to...


    Matthew 24:27-28

    King James Version (KJV)

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.



    Continued...
     
  13. Darrell C

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    Simply that we see the destruction of God's enemies at His return in regards to that battle surrounding Jerusalem, as well as the gathering of the Nations for the Sheep and Goat Judgment described in Matthew 25, where we can conclude that no unbeliever enters physically into the Millennial Kingdom, which means that we cannot have the Rapture of the Church at that time because this will leave no physical believers to produce that offspring which are the unbelievers that join with Satan when he is released for a short period.

    Think about it, Bob, Satan is bound for one thousand years. If he is bound at Christ's return then there is a 75 day establishment period in which "all things which offend are gathered and cast out of the Kingdom (and this will include those who say they did many works in Christ's Name))," this gives SAtan about a 3 1/2 month campaign at the end of the thousand years, where he gathers to himself the unbelieving population which cannot exist...

    ...if the all believers are glorified and caught up to Heaven at the end of the Tribulation.


    Continued...
     
  14. Darrell C

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    I understand that, and it is irrelevant to my point. You are saying that the First Resurrection is the Rapture, and that is not possible.


    Only Tribulation Martyrs.

    The believers that live through the Tribulation are the Sheep of Matthew 25. They enter the Kingdom in physical bodies, they are not resurrected at that time.


    Again, irrelevant to my point.


    Agreed.


    You just said they were. Look above.

    And the fact is that the dead, the lost...are resurrected unto, not the First Resurrection, which is the resurrection unto life, but unto the resurrection of damnation, which is still a physical resurrection.

    They live again at the end of that thousand years. They are given physical bodies suitable for Eternal Separation in Hell (the Lake of Fire).

    This is taught in both the Old and New Testaments. Daniel 12:1-2, for example. Peter and Jude make it clear that those who shall be damned will suffer eternal darkness. Christ makes it clear they will suffer eternal torment.


    It says no such thing...


    Revelation 20:6

    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



    ...it simply states blessed are those that take part in the First Resurrection, which refers to the fact that those who are resurrected unto life...the Second Death has no power over.

    But consider that in that thousand years there will be many who will come to faith in Christ, be born again, and when they die...the Second Death will have no power over them either, because they will partake of the First Resurrection...not the Second Death, which is the resurrection of damnation that will take place at one time for all of the dead (those without the Life of Christ) from all of History.

    There are three indisputable resurrections listed in Revelation (and one which is disputable, concerning the Antichrist), which are...

    1. The resurrection of the Two Witnesses;

    2. The Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs;

    3. The resurrection of those that die after the First Resurrection.

    The First Resurrection of Revelation 20:4 is not the only resurrection that will take place for believers.


    Continued...
     
  15. Darrell C

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    I agree, and again point out this has nothing to do with what I have said. At no time do I deny this truth.


    No, Bob, the Seventy years were seventy years that were fulfilled and finished. The Seventy Weeks have never been made complete by the Seventieth Week taking place. The Seventieth Week is separated from the Seventy Years and the first 69 Weeks by roughly 2500 years at least (for example, if the Tribulation were to begin today).

    And that is a view I reject, because it is not Christ in view here:


    Daniel 9:24-27

    King James Version (KJV)

    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    If we make the "prince that shall come" to be Christ, then we have to also make Christ the One that:

    1. Confirms the Covenant of Law through His death;

    2. Destroys the Holy City;

    3. Destroys the Sanctuary;

    4. Makes the sacrifice and oblation of the Law desolate through the overspreading of abominations.


    These are just a few points to consider.

    And when we balance all of Prophecy we see that the prince that shall come will be the Antichrist, and we can better correlate his actions to that Prophecy we receive in the New Testament to this Prophecy.

    This passage, Daniel 12, 2 Thessalonians 2, and the description of events in the Timeline given in Revelation make it clear that the Tribulation is a future event which has not taken place yet.

    We have not seen the Antichrist confirm the Covenant of Law which allows for the resuming of Temple Service which the Antichrist betrays in the middle of this Seventieth Week. That is when he will stand in the Temple and declare himself god...and demand worship of all who dwell on the earth.

    And it is those who refuse to worship him in this period that we see killed and raised unto life in the First Resurrection, which is not giving a sequential quality, but one of Rank.

    Consider:

    Revelation 20:5

    King James Version (KJV)

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



    See that word used elsewhere:


    Matthew 20:27

    King James Version (KJV)

    27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:




    Mark 12:28

    King James Version (KJV)

    28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?



    Do we see sequence or rank here. The "first commandment" we know of is not "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," for we see many commandments going forth prior to that being given. The "first" resurrection is not when the Tribulation Martyrs are raised, but Christ's Own Resurrection. In sequence, that is the resurrection which is first in sequence and rank.



    And that was my point: we cannot have a fulfillment of Prophecy according to the Prophecy if there is no Return of Christ.

    While one might make application to historical events...that does not change the fact that there is a future and final fulfillment to the prophecy concerning the Tribulation.

    Thanks for the response.


    God bless.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    In Rev 11 we have the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints - it draws to an end in 1798 when the Pope is taken captive by the French. The Last 10 years (ten days) of that period - France declares in favor of atheist and licentiousness -- a Christian nation declares formally for atheism.

    In Rev 11 they are called "Sodom" and "Egypt". -- Egyptian Pharoah represents the kind of Atheism that says "who is God that I should serve him?".

    And Sodom in France - was pretty self explanatory.

    That same 1260 year period of "dark ages" is described in Daniel 7, in Revelation 11, in Revelation 12 and in Revelation 13. There is a reason that this is such a big deal in the Bible.

    These are not two men that die physically - but it is a persecution of Christians where over 50 million are killed.Unsurpassed in all of previous history.

    In Rev 20 the saints take part in the first resurrection and the wicked take part in the 2nd resurrection 1000 years later.

    Rev 20
    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
    Click to expand...

    That is not "no Bob" -- that is "yes Bob".

    And what is more those 70 years as stated in Dan 9:1-7 are all contiguous - as are all Bible timelines.

    This is true without exception. So "yes" they are completed. They are the 70 years that Israel spent in Babylonian Captivity - and just like the 70 years of Daniel 9 are contiguous - so also are the 490 years in Daniel 9 in the 70 week apocalyptic timeline at the end of the chapter.

    nonsense. The 70 week - 490 year prophecy accurately predicted the first coming of Christ - and ended almost 2000 years ago.

    1. Your a mixing the 70 year timeline of Jeremiah in there again -- I think you mean the 490 years.

    2. You ignore the Bible fact that all timelines are contiguous or they don't work at all. inserting vast gaps of unknown centuries in the middle of a timeline makes it worthless as a timeline. Daniel 9:1-6 does not do that with Jeremiah's 70 years and does not do that with the 490 year timeline either.


    Daniel 9:24-27

    King James Version (KJV)

    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: ( so then - 483 years -- marking the point when Christ began his ministry) the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    (7weeks + 62 weeks) = 69 weeks = 483 years. A.D. 27 Christ's Baptism. "The time is fulfilled" message of Christ Mark 1.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

    (Hebrews 10 says that at his death he caused sacrifices and offerings to cease - "he takes away the first to establish the second". In the midst of that 70th week the Messiah puts an end to those sacrifices)


    and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    If we make the "prince that shall come" to be Christ, then we have to also make Christ the One that:

    1. Confirms the Covenant of Law through His death;

    He is the one who confirms the covenant "This cup is the New Covenant in My Blood" -

    This is the greatest Messianic prophecy in all of scripture.

    And ... ALL -- Bible... Timelines ... ARE ... Contiguous
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Sorry for the short response, Bob, but going out of town and have a plateful today.

    I cannot debate with you over a numerical system you have adopted which I do not recognize as valid. I gave a detailed address of the inconsistency of such a system, where we see that the 1260 days are described as a time, times, and half a time, which represents 3 1/2 years. All references to the Seventieth Week make this a seven year period and the divisions are more reasonably viewed as literal forty two month periods. You can either address the posts that address this or we are at an impasse. I can't say more than I already have.

    And again, France and Rome are not mentioned in Daniel or Revelation 11.


    Why are you reiterating what I have already addressed?


    Nosirree Bob.

    ;)

    The 70 years was completed, and we can see it as contiguous with the Seventy Weeks, But that doesn't mean that the Seventieth Week is contiguous with the first 69 Weeks.

    70 years is not the same as 70 Weeks, Bob.

    The Seventieth Week is separated from Messiah being cut off by almost 2,000 years now. Perhaps I am just not understanding your use of contiguous, and you should dumb it down a little for me.

    ;)


    Not possible if we understand Daniel 12 and how that correlates to the Prophecy of Matthew 24 and Revelation.

    We cannot have a completion of the Seventieth Week apart from Christ's Return.

    The Tribulation did not occur after Christ's death, and I would like to know how you are going to give contiguous quality to that which occurred roughly 35 years later which some view as the fulfillment of the Prophecy of the Tribulation. If one makes Christ the "prince that should come" and the Covenant confirmed the New Covenant, then we should see consistency in your appeal to a contiguous fulfillment.

    And we do not.

    We see a gap, and even more damaging to such a view is the simple fact that Messiah is cut off before the Seventieth Week:


    Daniel 9:24-27

    King James Version (KJV)


    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    So we have the 69 Weeks...then Messiah is cut off...

    ...then the Seventieth Week.

    Bob...you have Messiah being cut off in the middle of the Seventieth Week (if I understand your view correctly, and I think I do).

    The Covenant confirmed by the prince that shall come is the Covenant of Law. And while we could affirm Christ confirmed the Covenant of Law, this is not to be confused with Christ establishing the New Covenant, which was what happened through Messiah being cut off.

    So the New Covenant being confirmed by Christ occurs before the Seventieth Week.


    Continued...
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    No Bob, I distinguished between the Seventy Weeks and the 69 Weeks from the Seventieth Week. There is roughly 2,500 years separating these two periods, which can be viewed as contiguous.

    Great word, by the way.


    So the coming of Messiah the First Time and the coming of Messiah the Second time are...contiguous?

    So how do you reconcile the fact that if you make the Seventieth Week as pertaining to Messiah's Ministry in His First Advent...the gap between when Christ died and the Temple was defiled some 35 years later?

    Again, Messiah is cut off at the end of the 69 Weeks, that is just the case. He is not cut off in the middle of the seventieth week, but before the seventieth week even begins.

    It is Antichrist that confirms the Covenant of Law, which fits the Timeline of Revelation, for in that we see the Temple.


    Bob...Messiah is cut off before the Seventieth Week begins. There is no beginning of His ministry in the Seventieth Week:


    Daniel 9:25-26

    King James Version (KJV)




    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.



    This correlates to Christ being crucified at the end of the 69 weeks. When the 69 weeks end Messiah is cut off.


    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    This is the Seventieth Week. This is what happens in the Seventieth Week.

    The Prince that shall come (Messiah cannot be the One in view because He has already come, because He has been cut off) shall confirm the Covenant, which can only be the Covenant of Law, because that is what is relevant to Daniel's People.

    But again...I already addressed this.


    This is true...but He didn't do it by destroying the City and Sanctuary, nor...

    ...did He make it desolate through the overspreading of abominations.

    Christ did not come to destroy the Law, Bob.

    The legitimacy of the provision of relationship with God through that Covenant ended with Christ's death itself. While there is a roughly 47 day period before the ascension and sending of the Promised Spirit...we don't have fulfillment of the Prophecy of Daniel where we could make Christ the One confirming the Covenant of Law and then doing those things we are told here that the prince that shall come will do.

    Again...

    He didn't do it by destroying the City and Sanctuary, nor...

    ...did He make it desolate through the overspreading of abominations.


    Antichrist does that, and I gave a couple passages to show that.



    He didn't do it by destroying the City and Sanctuary, nor...

    ...did He make it desolate through the overspreading of abominations.



    Secondly...

    ...Christ did not confirm the New Covenant for one week, Bob.


    All Messianic Prophecies are great, Bob.

    ;)


    No...they...are...not.

    ;)

    You have a 35 year gap in your own interpretation.

    There is at least 2,000 years between the 69th week and the Seventieth at this point.

    The Millennial Kingdom has not been established, and Christ has not returned in the last 2,000 years. These things must be fulfilled in order for us to view the Seventieth Week as having been fulfilled.

    The prince that shall come is a destroyer, quite unlike that which Christ accomplished.

    Once more, give consideration to what that prince shall do:


    Daniel 9:24-27

    King James Version (KJV)


    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    We cannot impose fulfillment of this on Christ, for He did not destroy the City and Sanctuary, nor did He make sacrifice and offering to cease and to be desolate through the overspreading of abominations.

    It would be roughly 35 years before Temple Service ceased, and that is not how I view a contiguous Prophetic Timeline.

    Going out of town, Bob, and not sure I am going to return for a while here. So thanks for the responses, and see you around.


    God bless.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    70 weeks - includes the 69th and 70th week.

    All contiguous.

    70 weeks = 490 apocalyptic days - == 490 literal years.

    457 B.C to 34 A.D. -- one contiguous timeline.

    One 490 year prophecy -- >> the 70 week prophecy.

    So also the 70 years of Jeremiah that Daniel reference in that SAME chapter.

    70 years contiguous timeline.
    70 weeks - --> 490 years contiguous timeline.

    It would have been had there been such a timeline prophecy. But there is not.

    There are events that happen after the 490 years complete - but they are not part of that 490 year timeline. The messiah is cut off (killed) in the midst of the that last week. And he also causes sacrifices and offerings to cease Hebrews 10:4-12 in the midst of that week. "He takes away the first to establish the second" -- Hebrews 10.

    No there are 483 years 'until Messiah the prince" -- the 'annointed one' -- annointed by the Holy Spirit at the start of his ministry. Thus in Mark 1 both John and Christ proclaim "the time is fulfilled" they were at the end of the 69th week and the start of the 70th.

    Christ confirms the covenant - and says "THIS cut is the new COVENANT in My blood" -

    In each case the NT does not fail to show the fulfillment of each part of the prophecy.

    Nothing in Daniel 9 say the Messiah is cut off before the Seventieth Week begins.



    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

    That means 69 weeks. .. 483 years from 457 B.C. - is 27 A.D. when Christ was baptized -- the start of his ministry - and so both John and Christ in Mark 1 preach "the time is fulfilled".

    (7 weeks, 62 weeks, 1 week)

    At the end of that 62 weeks - we have the full 69 weeks. And only AFTER that is the Messiah cut off.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:



    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

    Heb 10
    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
    8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Bob, headed out of town this morning so this will be brief.


    Like I said, I do not embrace this formula, and have already expressed why I see it as improbable. You are welcome to address what I have already said, or, keep reiterating it without addressing what I have said.


    That's the point...the timeline stops between the 69th and 70th Week.

    The Prophecy was not fulfilled when Christ was cut off. We did not see Messiah cut off then a Covenant confirmed, then the City and Sanctuary destroyed. Sacrifice and Oblation were not made desolate in the temporal sense for another 35 years. You can't deny that Gap which you have to address in order for there to be a contiguous quality imposed.


    No, Bob, all the events described occur within the 70 Weeks. There is no 3 1/2 year period as pointed out in Daniel 12 after Messiah is cut off.


    Daniel 9:24

    King James Version (KJV)


    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


    While we see a partial fulfillment, we do not see everything that has to be fulfilled in order for us to say this is fulfilled finally.

    This...


    Daniel 9:26-27

    King James Version (KJV)


    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    ...is speaking about the same event as this...


    Daniel 12:11-13

    King James Version (KJV)


    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.



    I showed you that the first time reference is a time, times, and half a time. Here it is referred to in days. In Revelation it is referred to in both months as well as a time, times, and half a time.

    Not over a millennia which does not create a contiguous quality at all, but in fact has the gap from the time Messiah is cut off, until Sacrifice and oblation ceases temporally 35-37 years later, as well as the gap between the ends of the "prophetic years" until now.

    What's contiguous about that, Bob?

    Could you just explain to me how Christ's people, which would be Christians...destroyed the City and the Sanctuary? Does this mean you believe Rome was the Church?

    ;)


    Continued...
     

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