Post tribulation arguments

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Sep 22, 2015.

  1. webdog

    webdog
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    Hi guys, been a while since I've been here. What are the best biblical arguments against a post tribulation position?
     
  2. webdog

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    Don't everybody commented at once :)
     
  3. revmwc

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    Chapter 6 of the book The Snatching Away of the Bride states this,

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  4. JamesL

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    There is no biblical argument against a PostTrib position. Every so-called argument is nothing but philosophical meanderings.

    We'll be here, suffering at the hands of the man of sin. God has called us for the express purpose of following the example of suffering which Christ left for us - 1Peter 2:21

    Every attempt to rationalize why believers shouldn't suffer, is an attempt to tell God that we're not interested in His call.

    He has not appointed us to wrath, but He has most certainly appointed us to tribulation
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    The tribulation period is God's wrath.
     
  6. JamesL

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    The Tribulation period is God's wrath toward sinners, while the man of sin will make war with the saints.
     
  7. JamesL

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    Daniel 7

    19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,

    20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

    21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them

    22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.


    The man of sin will wage war with the saints and overpower us until Christ returns and passes judgment in our favor. Plainly stated. But that's ok. Philosophy always trumps scripture in the "Great Escape" view
     
  8. Darrell C

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    In my view the best reason why a post-trib position fails is based on the question, "Who Enters the Millennial Kingdom?" If we consider that no-one who is not born again will enter the Kingdom of God, we can conclude only believers do. Then we consider that the Rapture is first and foremost a spiritual Resurrection through which believers are glorified and made like unto Christ.

    The problem for the Post-Trib view arises when we get to the Kingdom itself, for we would have to conclude, if all believers are glorified at the end of the Tribulation...

    ...there leaves no-one to fulfill this...


    Revelation 20:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



    This demands physical (as opposed to glorified) believers (the only ones to enter) at the end of the Tribulation. Those destroyed above are physical, and are descendants of those believers.

    And this demands that the Rapture precede the Tribulation, as the Rapture involves both living and dead believers, which means the collective Church in her entirety. Only the Pre-Trib position can be reconciled to all relevant Prophecy.

    Our Progressive Dispensational brethren have sought to avoid this problem with doctrines such as a Tribulation that does not involve the whole world, but is exclusive to the Middle-East. They deny the Rapture of the Two Witness in the middle of the Tribulation, and for that matter, to my knowledge, deny a seven year period, well...period. lol

    But only Tribulation Martyrs are raised at the end of the Tribulation, most likely glorified because they rule and reign with Christ for one thousand years (which could be argued, as long life will be an element of that Kingdom, a person dying 100 years of age considered a child).

    Christ teaches nothing that offends will enter the Kingdom, and in Matthew 25 we see unbelievers (identified as goats) destroyed. This is a physical destruction which begins their eternal punishment (they will be raised from Hades at the end of the Millennial Kingdom).

    So far that is the best argument against the Post-Trib view I have seen.


    God bless.
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    So let me get this straight. You do not have the ability to discuss these issues with love and grace you can only accuse others of things like ignoring scripture in favor of being philosophical?

    Is that what I am understanding here?
     
    #9 Revmitchell, Sep 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2015
  10. Darrell C

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    Be glad to have you address the "rationalization" I have offered.

    There are many reasons why a post-trib view is weak, and that believers suffering tribulation as opposed to the "wrath" Paul writes about, from which we have been delivered...is one of the weaker arguments.


    God bless.
     
  11. kyredneck

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    The 'great tribulation', which was the same as ' Jacob's trouble', is done already.:

    21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

    19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
    30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21
     
  12. JamesL

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    So let me get this straight. You do not have the ability to demonstrate a position from clear biblical statements, you can only try to deflect away from scripture toward philosophy and speak negatively about what you perceive as an absence of love and grace?

    That's what I'm understanding here.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    And thanks for confirming what I just said.
     
  14. Darrell C

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    The generation in view is the generation that witnesses that which Christ teaches. While we can see events which correlates to the Prophecy, that does not deny a later event, just as fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel did not fulfill the events Christ states are yet future.

    And until we see Israel redeemed in fulfillment of God's promises to her, we can safely say that the generation that will witness the Antichrist standing in the Temple declaring himself God has not yet been revealed.


    God bless.
     
  15. Revmitchell

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    Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    So Jesus told us that we would have tribulation in this world but the nature of that tribulation is that which comes from this world. This tribulation is that which opposes God and his people. The source here is Satan and the world not God.

    The tribulation during the tribulation period is different. This tribulation is in fact that wrath of God who is sending out His wrath in opposition to the world.

    In the first case we have tribulation opposing God. In the tribulation period we see in revelation it is God opening seals and bowls in judgment on the world who has opposed Him.

    1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    In this verse we see God declaring that the church has no appointment with the wrath of God. The context of this verse is the raptured church. So in conclusion we see:

    1. There are two different types of tribulation:
    A. Tribulation from this world in opposition to God and His people.
    B. Tribulation from God in opposition to this world.
    2. God declared the church is not to be apart of His tribulation or wrath which is against the world.
    3. The tribulation during the tribulation period is that which is God's wrath against the world.
    4. There is no need and it is in fact contrary to scripture to conflate both types of tribulation as if they are one and the same.
     
  16. webdog

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    Good stuff guys, thanks. For me the very wedding verbiage used for the bride and bridegroom, not to mention Jesus saying he is going to prepare a place for us, in his fathers house are many mansions, and only his father knows the date and time of his return given the audience and their wedding ritual at the time only fits the pretrib position.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Hello WD,
    Hope all is well with you and yours in the providence of God....

    I no longer hold to it, but the pretrib will say;
    rev3
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


    they try and link with 1thess5;
    1 Thessalonians 5King James Version (KJV)

    5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    they point out it is God's wrath against the unsaved that we are "kept from":thumbs:
     
  18. kyredneck

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    Yes. It's the generation of Christ's day:

    https://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2219452#post2219452

    So there's going to be TWO great tribulations, "such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be"?

    No. You espouse the same old wearisome dispensational chop suey. You people fragment the word of God and destroy the wonderful underlying continuity of the scriptures, thereby depriving the children of their bread. 'The Great Tribulation', i.e., the time of Jacob's trouble, is a done deal. Over with, fulfilled, finished, a thing of the past. This 'end times fever' of dispensationalism is a cheap adrenaline rush thrill built upon fantastical, fictional sensationalism, books like 'The Late Great Planet Earth' and the 'Left Behind' series showing just how utterly shallow it is.
     
    #18 kyredneck, Sep 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2015
  19. tyndale1946

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    John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    I agree with kyredneck and as this verse say we will have tribulation and I've had my share... My wife has gone through a bout of Cancer... Now you tell me that is not Great Tribulation?... Better yet tell her!... Each and ever one of us here have been through some tribulation in our lives and if we are true to our conviction it was at that time great... If you haven't maybe you aren't breathing... Jesus Christ says you will, and I don't argue with the Son Of God... We are tempted and tried daily because this world is a sinful world and we are in it but as our Savior says... but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world... Brother Glen
     
  20. kyredneck

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    From the very beginning to the very end of the book we're told, 'must shortly come to pass, 'the time is at hand', 'I come quickly', 'seal not up these words for the time is at hand'; but that means absolutely nothing to you dispies. You simply ignore it and carry on with your fantastical fabrications.

    Just like thr threefold declaration from the synoptics, "This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished". It means nothing to you, you explain it away in order to to carry on with thrilling these speculations built upon your imaginations.

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
    3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1

    6 And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass.
    7 And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.
    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.
    12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
    20 He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus.
     
    #20 kyredneck, Sep 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2015

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