Post vs Pre mil? How about both?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Lacy Evans, May 14, 2004.

  1. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    I recently sent a PM to a noble Post-Mil brother who has been debating on another thread. I thought it might make a good discussion.


    I am a pre-tribber. I believe in a pre-trib partial rapture. There are three main reasons that I hold to the pre-trib position.(see below)

    If not for these three reasons I would hold to a full post trib rapture. When I was in Bible school, we had many teachers "prove" to us all three positions, (pre, mid, and post.) I now believe that all three are correct.


    (Note: partial-rapturists believe in a small, partial pre-trib rapture of all living, obedient, watchful Christians. Then there are several possible catching-aways during the trib all based on the readiness or ripeness of the Christians in question. Finally the general ressurrection of the saved dead and those who are "alive and remain" at the last trump near the end of the trib. This is followed by the Judgment Seat of christ and the Millenial Kingdom.)

    I think you will find my position has some merit and solves many of the problems in the debate between post and pre-tribbers. Perhaps we are all looking at parts of the truth.

    The 3 reasons are:

    1)Scripture seems to indicate a possible escape from the trib for some obedient Christians.

    2) In Revelations Chapter 5, before the tribulation seals, after the 1st trump, (obviously still during the trib) there are believers already before the throne.


    3)The end of the world is the harvest. Matt 13:39.

    Lev. 23 shows the order:

    A)Lev 23:10: 1st fruit sheaf (no leaven)= Christ (see I Cor 15:23)

    B) Lev 23:17: 1st fruit loaved baked with leaven (sin)= Obedient Christians ready and ripe, firstfruits rapture-pretrib/midtrib! (see Mark 4:29, Luke 21:36)

    C) Lev 23:22-General harvest - Posttrib - (nearly) everyone left after the rippening of the trib. This is the general ressurrection at the last trump.

    D) Lev 23:22 Gleanings - I'm not sure who these people are. Perhaps they are the people in natural bodies who get saved during the Kingdom or very near the end of the trib!


    I invite you to read through some of brother Fausts articles on the subject at:
    http://www.kingdombaptist.org/module_articles.cfm#36

    In Christ, Brother Lacy
     
  2. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs
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    I believe as Christians we should be prepared for pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, and post-trib, there are Scriptures that can be used to support all of the views, we don't want to be caught off guard. I don't consider the timing of the rapture to be a dogmatic doctrine, but I do enjoy studying it, and even though I have been taught the pre-trib view my entire life, I am leaning towards the pre-wrath view as what I believe to be the right view.
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Early Christians never teaching on the two or three phases of the second advent. Even, Jesus and the apostles never, never teach on the two or three phases of the second coming.

    There is no record anywhere in the Bible saying there are two or three phases of the second coming/advent.

    Early Christians believed only one future coming of Christ. None of them teach on two or three phases of Christ's coming from Pentacost Day to early 19th Century.

    Till year around 1830, a teenager Maraget MacDondald claimed, she had a vision about Christ's coming. She said, she saw Christ descend in the clouds and shout the trumpet, gathering all Christians up in the air before tribulation begins. Also, she saw Christians face fiery trials under the Antichrist. Then, she saw Christ descend out of the heaven after the tribulation. She described of the partial rapture.

    Either Edward Irving or MacDonald both were not aggressive or influence on partial rapture or pretrib. John Nelson Darby was the Father of the partial rapture/pretribulation. Darby taught two phases of the second coming in 1803's to 1840's.

    I know of most pretribbers saying, they are not partial rapturist. But most of them are not realize that pretribulation is PART of partial rapturism. Because partial rapturism teaches two or three phases of Christ's coming. In fact, pretrib ACTUALLY teaching two phases of Christ's coming is part of partial rapture.

    I have NO problem with Luke 21:36. It tells us, we ought to be watch and always pray all the times. Why? Because we all shall face Christ sit on the throne to judge us. We ought to be watch and pray all the time, so, we able to escape from the things. Escape from what? Judgment day and everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

    I have NO problem with Rev. 3:10. It tells us, Christ promises us, if we keep His commandment, He shall protect us from tempations. Or, in other way, IF we do not keep the commandment, we shall face temptations more problems. "Hour of temptation" is NOT 'seven year of tribulation period'. 'Hour' is not literal exactly 60 minutes. Hour means period, era, time. For example in Matt. 26:45- Jesus told to the disciples, "Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the HOUR is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners." Does that mean, Christ shall be on the cross in the next hour at around 4 a.m. in the dark? No. It tells us, NOW the time is arrival for Christ to be betrayed and put on the cross. He died about 12 or 13 hours later in the afrernoon at 3 pm.

    Rev. 3:10,11 same with Rev. 2:10 and James 1:12. Rev. 2:10 tells us, we ought always be endure all the way till our death, not give up while face tribulations or temptations. Once we endure till our death, then shall receive the crown of everlasting life. James 1:12 tells us, we ought to be endure with temptations, if we endure with it till our death, then we shall receive the crown of everlasting life.

    Also, 1 Corinthians 10:13 tells us, God does not allow us to bear greater temptations. God knows our weakeness area. BUT, we are able to bear and to flee from it. That mean, we are responsible to flee from fall into sin. Joseph is a good example of 1 Cor. 10:13 in Gen. 39:7-13 telling us, when Joseph faced temptation of master's wife. She asked him for sex. He told her, no, he refused. She does not gave up on him. The next day, she kept on asked him the same question. He refused. She kept on asked again and again day to day. One day, she asked him the same thing while she grabs his garment same time, he immediated fled away from her. He did the right thing to escape from fell into sin. Temptation is not sin. But if commit to do something after the temptation is SIN.

    Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep his commandment, He will protect us from temptations, OR.... if we do not keep His commadment, we might face temptations more problems.

    I want to show you of Matthew Henry Commentary on Rev. 3:10. He wrote commentary in year from 1690's to 1710's. He said on Rev. 3:10: "BY keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peace will make them faithful in TIMES of persecution."

    We do NOT have to wait for the coming "hour of temptation" - 'seven year of tribulation period'. Church of Philadelphia during in John's time around 95 A.D. already face trials, persecutions in their time. Early Christians already faced their temptations in their time. We are now facing temptations in our lifetime. We are facing temptations, trials, and perscutions in our times.

    Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep His commandements, He will protect us from the temptations. OR... if we do not keep His commandments, we might fall into troubles and problems.

    John 17:15 tells us, Christ asked His Father in prayer, He asked Father NOT to take Christians out of the world(sound like rapture? Huh?) but asked Father to protect Christians from the evil-temptations, trials, and persecutions.

    Rev. 3:10 does not talking about the wrath of God, resurrection, gathering together, Christ's decend, second coming. It talks about about the promise to us, if we keep His commandments, He will protect us from the temptations.

    Revelation chapter 4 and 5 is now happening since Early Church to today. Revelation chapter 4 and 5 talking about the activity up in the heaven. Right now, the 24 elders are sit on the 24 thrones round around Christ's throne. Right now, the four beasts are round around Christ's throne. Right now, many angels are singing to Christ. Right now, many saints in the heaven are singing to Christ. Right now, Christ already released 5 of 7 seals of Revelation chapter 6.


    Matt. 13:39 is very clear telling us, the harvest of the world IS AT THE END OF THE WORLD The harvest shall be at Christ's coming. Matt 13:39-42, 49-50 same with Matt 25:31-46; and Rev. 14:14-20. There shall be the ONLY ONE harvest at the end of the world.

    If suppose example, partial rapture is correct, that means Christ shall come like as "yo-yo;s" two or three times.

    1 Cor. 15:51-54 teach us, AT THE LAST LAST TRUMPET, we shall be ALLLLLLLLLLLL chnaged into immortality AT ONCE! The Bible does not saying there shall be several trumpets to be blown for the series of the harvests or gatherings of two or three different types of saints.

    Partial rapture/pretribulation is not biblical. It is only 170 years old doctrine. Early Church does not teaching on several phases of Christ's coming. Because none find anywhere in the Bible teaching on it.

    Bible teaches us, there shall be the only ONE future coming of Christ.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    By the way,

    I already read Faust's site. Also, I already debate with Mr. Joey Faust in emails about 'outer darkness' and partial rapture too.

    Once after I made strong points to Faust in the email on them, I never receive email from him for about 2 weeks. If you don't believe me. Ask brumleyj. He already read forward email that I sent it to Faust. Also, I told brumleyj, I not yet receive email from Faust since 2 weeks to now.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  5. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    DPT said:
    Yes but Lev 23, 1Co 15:23 clearly show that the ONE HARVEST is in several stages.

    If it were true, why would it matter, yo-yo or no yo-yo. This is purely subjective.

    But actually in my position, the only "coming" is the Second Coming at the end of the trib. The various "raptures" or "catching aways" are not comings. They are leavings! Christians leaving the earth like Enoch or Elijah are not "comings" of Christ. So no yo-yo.

    Lacy
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Lacy,

    NONE Christians shall leave the earth at Christ's coming. When Christ shall come again, we shall MEEEEEEEEEET Him in the air, and we shall be with the Lord where He goes, we shall be ever with the Lord! -1 Thess 4:17-18.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  7. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Funny that Christ said he would take them back to heaven in John 14.
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    DD,

    John 14:1-3 speak of New Jerusalem, we shall dwell in it where Christ dwells forever and ever, that would at at Christ's coming. I have no problem with John 14. Also, New Jerusalem shall be descend from the heaven to land on the new earth by follow after the destruction of old heavens and old earth at Lord's coming - 2 Peter 3:10-13.

    By the way, 1 Thess. 4:15-17 do not saying, when AFTER Christ descend out of heaven to gathering us together THEN return back to heaven again. It says, 'descend'. It means down opposite of up. We know that.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  9. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    DPT
    Of course I agree completely with you here. 1 Thess 4:17-18 refers to the 2nd coming. But this is not the rapture. There is no trump at the rapture(s). The only purpose (as far as I can tell) that the pre-trib rapture serves is to remove obedient, watching Christians from the trib.

    Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Lacy
     
  10. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew
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    Lacy, perhaps we should stop using the word "rapture"? After all, it comes from 1 Thes 4. If this passage is post-trib, then isn't the rapture post-trib by definition?

    What about, "Partial, pre-trib escape"?
     

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