Posttribulation theory's denials

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Askjo, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. Askjo

    Askjo
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    What did the Posttribulation deny?

    1. Dispensational interpretation of the Scripture

    2. Between Israel and the Church

    3. The Scriptural teaching concerning the nature and purpose of the tribulation period

    4. Between Rapture and the Second Advent

    5. The doctrine of Imminence

    6. Any future of fulfillment to the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27

    7. The literal interpretation of the prophecy

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. R. Charles Blair

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    Dear Askjo - "Post-trib" is only a denial of the any-moment return IF you postulate a 7-year tribulation period just before a millenium. If you believe, with Jesus, that "in the world ye shall have tribulation" (Jn. 16:33), and with Paul that "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22)and that "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him" (II Tim. 2:12), then tribulation is a natural part of the life of the believer, not just a short time period when we are gone. As to "wrath," the other half of I Thess. 5:9 makes it clear that the opposite of wrath is salvation; therefore wrath is clearly hell. Certainly believers are not appointed to hell.

    Best in Christ - Charles -Ro. 8:28
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

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    Blair, [​IMG] AMEN!

    Askjo,

    Soon, I will post this to discuss on that issue.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  4. postrib

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    Are you referring to the “dispensational” view which says that the church and Israel are mutually exclusive? If so, the scriptures nowhere teach this. Such a dispensationalism is a mistaken ecclesiology that was invented out of whole cloth in an attempt to support a mistaken eschatology of a pre-trib rapture, which the scriptures also nowhere teach.

    Believing Jews, such as the Apostle Paul, are members of both the church and Israel (Romans 11:1). And believing Gentiles have been grafted into the tree of believing Israel (Romans 11:17), becoming fellowcitizens in believing Israel (Ephesians 2:12-19).

    The believers who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be from every nation (Revelation 7:9-14), not just physical Israel. And they will be members of the church, which is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there is only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    The scriptures nowhere teach that the nature of the tribulation will forbid that the church can’t go through the tribulation. Verses such as Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12-13 show clearly that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Christ coming and gathering together his elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8).

    The doctrine of imminence is taught nowhere in scripture. Instead, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 teaches the opposite of imminence, for it says that Christ can’t come and gather together the church until after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11), which cannot occur until after the Jewish temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem.

    Please indicate specifically how you feel the post-trib view denies the literal interpretation of prophecy.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    Exactly so, Brother Askjo!

    There are two schools of "postrib" in fact
    very hostile to each other. Here i
    compare them and the pretrib position.

    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- You are here
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib pre-mill outline:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- You are here
    2. Tribulation time
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues - is the same as: &lt;-- You are here
    2. Tribulation time - is the same as: &lt;-- You are here
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;-- You are here
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Peterist a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- You are here
    1. rapture/resurrection &lt;done happened
    2. Tribulation time &lt;-- You are here
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event &lt;done happend
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;done happened
    5. new heaven & new earth &lt;done happened

    Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
    view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
    Ed recommends:
    get Rapture Ready!
    Stay Rapture Ready!

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Askjo

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    Are we under the Grace right now?

    These verses did not say the word, "CHURCH"

    The doctrine of imminence is SCRIPTURAL! Read Matthew 24:36-44.
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

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    Askjo,

    Neither anywhere in Revelation 4 to 19 saying 'church' is UP IN THE HEAVEN either.

    Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 19, that Church is Christ's Bride as wife for the marriage of the Lamb. I agree with them, yes, Church is Christ's bride. YET, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 19. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 19?

    Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 20, that the church shall reign with Christ. I agree with them. YET, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 20. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 20?

    Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 21, that Church is Christ's bride, and Church shall dwell in New Jerusalem. I agree with them. YET, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 21. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 21?

    Church is being "sandwiche" together in the whole book of Revelation. The message was given by Chris
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    Askjo,

    Neither anywhere in Revelation 4 to 19 saying 'church' is UP IN THE HEAVEN either.

    Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 19, that Church is Christ's Bride as wife for the marriage of the Lamb. I agree with them, yes, Church is Christ's bride. YET, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 19. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 19?

    Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 20, that the church shall reign with Christ. I agree with them. YET, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 20. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 20?

    Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 21, that Church is Christ's bride, and Church shall dwell in New Jerusalem. I agree with them. YET, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 21. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 21?

    Church is being "sandwiche" together in the whole book of Revelation. The message was given by Christ give them to John, so, John gaven this message to all churches - Rev. 1:4 and Rev. 22:16.

    The whole book of Revelation is for the churches. Because, these things given instruction, and warnings to us, that we must take heed and not be deceived.

    Rev. 13:9-18 and Rev. 14:9-12 both are very serious warning to the churches, if any person have ear(deaf have eye) LET person KNOW the warning - Rev. 13:9. Because Christ cares all of us, that He does not want us to be deceived for worship Antichrist or receive the mark of the beast, go to lake of fire. He does not want us to be deceived. He loves us so much. Christ knows many of elect/Christians will be deceived - Matt. 24:24.

    Pretrib often pick Matt 24:36, 42, 44 - three verses for the evidence of 'pretrib'. But, they pick three verses out of the context of Matthew chapter 24.

    Remind you, the whole context of Matthew chapter 24 discuss about the signs and the only ONE future coming of Christ. Christ does not saying about two comings anywhere in the context of Matt 24.

    Many pretribbers know that Matthew 24 talks about the 2nd coming and the end of the world.

    Matt 24:36,42, 44 speaks of no one know when the 2nd coming shall be we always must be ready for the coming of Christ. Because He will come like as the thief. IF we do not watch and ready, He shall come to thief us - Rev. 3:3. That mean, if we do not watch and ready, He will come to thief us, and take us to where? cast into fire. That is a very serious warning to everyone. Why? Because Christ cares us so much.

    We must take heed Christ's warning, so, we shall not be deceived - Matt 24:4 and Matt 24:24.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    8. Post-trib deny the comparing of Matt. 24:31-44 with
    1 Thess. 4:15-17 both are fit same so beautiful.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    None of posttriber deny Matt. 24:31-44. All posttribbers agree with Matt 24:31-44 100%.

    Often, pretrib pick 3 verses - Matt 24:36, 42, 44 out of the context of Matthew chapter 24, to prove three verses are 'pretrib'.

    Remind you, the context of Matthew chapter 24 talk about the 2nd coming and the end of the age. Christ does not saying about two comings nothing anywhere in Matthew chapter 24. Christ clearly talking about HIS coming - the only ONE event at the end of age, nothing else.

    Again, you keep on blend Matt. 24:31 separate from Matt. 24:29-30, you break the hermenuetic rule - Intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY.

    All pretribbers deny the clear comparing of Matt 24:30-31 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17, both are fit same so beautiful.

    None of posttribber include me deny Matt 24:31-44.

    Matt 32-44 talk about to be watch and ready for His coming, no one know when His coming will be, we must always be ready.

    Watch doe snot mean look or stare up in the sky. Watch means be prepared and walking Godly daily, serve the Lord, always be ready for Christ's coming all the time. WE do not know when we will die, maybe tonight, Christian will die, by car accident, shot, heart attack, etc. Every Christ ought to be ready all the time - Rev. 3:2.

    Why? Because we all shall face the judgement day.

    Many of us are not ready for it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    Thank you for supporting the
    pretribulation rapture/resurreciton.
    Yes, Matthew 24:31-44 supports the
    pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
    And you just said you agree?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    Tee Hee, i haven't even
    posted my understanding of Matthe 24
    yet and already you are dissing it.

    ---------------------
    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-20

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:21-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-20

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:21-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    etc&gt;)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes not only the
    immediate time before 70AD when the
    AOD = abomination of desolation happened
    (Matthe 24:15-2) but also all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    I never saying that I support pretribulation rapture/resurrection. You just adding it up on me. I was pretrib myself before. I left pretrib camp 12 years ago. I never change my mind back to my former belief - pretrib again ever till I die or Lord comes, because I follow the Bible than men's teachings- Colossians 2:8.

    Christ disagree with you. Clear, and overwhelm, Christ tells us, that we shall see the signs appear - Matt 24:32-34 show us, His coming draw closer, We shall see the signs appear everywhere - Matt 24:5-30 before our gathering together - verse 31.

    We already see so many signs are appearing everywhere over the world since Early Church to today, these shall be continue through great tribulation till Christ comes.

    You really so TWISTED what Christ was actually saying in His words.

    Christ tells us, we must seee the signs appear everywhere, even, we must go through tribulation - Matt 24:9-10 and Matt 24:15-21- BEFORE Christ comes - Matt. 24:29-31.

    I agree with you on Matthew 24:31 is gathering together is rapture/resurrection.

    You are aware that most pretribbers would NOT agree with you on Matt. 24:31 is rapture/resurrection.

    Yet, you say, Matt. 24:31 -'this is pretrib verse'. Christ disagree with you. Christ tells us, He is coming back to gathering us together AFTER the tribulation - Matt. 24:29-31.

    You always keep on separate Matt 24:31 from the context of Matt. 24:29-31 speak of our gathering together at His coming AFTER tribulation. Our gathering together CANNOT be occur yet TILL Christ comes first same with 1 Thess 4:15.

    I heard many pretrib pastors and Tim LaHaye teaching that Church Age shall be end at the rapture at Matt 24:14. The problem is, Matt 24:14 does NOT saying, about our gathering together and the coming of Christ.

    Understand, 'then shall the end come' means, the gospel will be continue to spread over the world TILLLLLLL the end of the age. The end of the age will be arrive on the LAST DAY when Christ shall come with his angels same with Matt. 13:39-42, 49-50; Matt. 28:19-20. The gospel shall be continue spreading over the world till Christ comes at the end of the world is 2nd coming. Even, the gospel will be continue during great tribulation under the Antcihrist's reign same time TILL Christ comes with his angels.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  14. Askjo

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    Neither anywhere in Revelation 4 to 19 saying 'church' is UP IN THE HEAVEN either.

    Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 19, that Church is Christ's Bride as wife for the marriage of the Lamb. I agree with them, yes, Church is Christ's bride. YET, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 19. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 19?

    Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 20, that the church shall reign with Christ. I agree with them. YET, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 20. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 20?

    Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 21, that Church is Christ's bride, and Church shall dwell in New Jerusalem. I agree with them. YET, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 21. Does that mean 'church' is excluded from Revelation chapter 21?
    </font>[/QUOTE]The local church will be closed at the rapture, however the universal church will be gone with the Lord when the rapture begins. That's why the LOCAL church is absent according to your point.
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    askjo,

    Understand, Revelation chapter chapter 2 and 3 were written to seven local churches in Asia. How about churches in Middle East like as in Israel during John's time? How about churches in Europe during John's time? Does Revelation saying the churches of Europe excluded from Revelation during John's time? Does Revelation saying the churches of Middle East excluded from Revelation during John's time?

    You have to be careful, what you saying about 'local' and 'universal'. Revelation does not saying 'local' churches rapture out before tribulation begins.

    Also, I want to telling you, remember, book of Revelation is heavily symbolic. Jesus told John, to carry the messages to the SEVEN Churches. Does it mean there were the ONLY seven churches in Asia during John's time? No, there were MORE THAN seven churches in Asia(now Turkey) duirng John's time.

    Why number seven? Number seven is God's favorite number and completed.

    Notice seven candlesticks. During Moses' wilderness. God told him to built tabernacle. There were seven candlesticks in the tabernacle. It could be more than seven candlesticks, if God wants to. But, God have his reason. Notice Rev.1:4 - "the seven Spirits which are before his throne;" Rev 4:5 says, "there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." It have the represent something about God. Also, in Zechariah 4:2,6 did mentioned about seven.

    God does not limited only seven local churches in Asia area, also, Rev. 22:16 says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the CHURCHES..." Jesus does not saying limited only 7 local churches, also, he give messages to all churches over the world

    Rev. 13:7 tells us, Antichrist shall make war against saints, limited only in Israel?. No, persecutions will be widepsread over the world- "power was given him over ALLLLLLLL kindreds, amd tongues and nations."

    He shall persecute the churches over the world.

    Understand, word, 'church' is not local or universal either. 'Church' is God's people who follow Jesus Christ, and they who are CALLED OUT, they follow Christ. Church is spiritual and mystery. Church is over the world. Church is saints. We are the church.

    Rev. 4:1 does not saying it is the rapture of the church. Rev. 4:1 talks about John was called by the angel, asked John in one person, to come up. So, his spirit and vision, that he went up into heaven in the spirit and vision. It does not mean that John was rapture. John was asked for come up, and show John to see the future things.

    1 Cor. 14:33 - "For God us not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in ALLLL churches of the saints."

    God gives us the peace, not only seven local churches in John's time. Also, over the world.

    Askjo, you saying local churches will be gone by rapture. Then, what happen to other local churches in Europe ans in Middle East?

    God knows all churches include seven churches of Aisa(now Turkey)are not perfect.

    Revelation chapter 2 and 3 talking about Jesus Christ knew the individuals of the churches on their spiritual and works, also their character too. Christ knew their strengtheths and weaknesses. These churches of Asia - Revelation 2-3 are apply to all individual Christians over the world throughout all ages.

    You have to be careful, you cannot limited only seven local churches of Asia. The Book of revelation was given message for all churches over the world - Rev. 22:16. Christ wants every Churches ought to know the instruction and warning. Because He cares the churches so much. He does not want churches to be deceived. That what the book of Revelation was given for.

    Your logical of 'local' & 'universral' churches do not prove anything about the timing of rapture in Revelation. Your argument is weakeness. Sorry to saying it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  16. Askjo

    Askjo
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    Ok, read carefully, Revelation 19:7 saying, "his wife..." Let me ask you WHO is HIS wife?

    Ok, read carefully Revelation 21:9 saying, "I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."
    1. Who is the bride?
    2. Who is the Lamb's wife?

    You seem to ignore the figurative interpretation. Why?

    Who watch the signs? Church or the Jews? Which one?

    1 Thess. 4:17 saying, "caught up" referring to the rapture. Read the verse 16 saying, "dead in Christ" and verse 17 saying, "we...which are alive.." Who are they? They are "universal" church. You know why??? Because the universal church is invisible and the local church is visible.

    We are Christians calling the "universal" church, but we go to the church where the worship is that is called, the "local" church.

    Will they miss the rapture?

    Thank you for your negative against me but you denied the sense of the figurative interpretation and the literal interpretation.
     
  17. postrib

    postrib
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    A verse does not have to use the specific word “church” in order for it to be referring to the church, indeed, even entire books of the New Testament do not contain the word “church” (2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John), but they are still about the church. Some say that Revelation 1-3 is about the church because it contains the specific word “church,” but the tribulation passages of Revelation aren’t about the church because they don’t contain the specific word “church.” But by the same logic, they would have to say that Romans 1-15 isn’t about the church because it doesn’t contain the specific word “church,” while Romans16 is about the church because it does contain the specific word “church.” They would also have to say that Revelation 1-3 is about the Jews because it contains the specific word “Jews,” but the tribulation passages of Revelation aren’t about the Jews because they don’t contain the specific word “Jews.” You can see the fallacy of such logic.

    The believers who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the true church, for they will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13), and there is only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    In Matthew 24:36-51, Jesus is referring to the same “coming of the Son of man” as Matthew 24:3-35, “immediately after the tribulation” (v. 29-30). There’s no third coming.

    When we go through the scriptures used to support imminence, we see that none of them teach or require an imminent, any moment, signless coming of Christ for His own; they can all refer to the second coming and to our continual looking forward to that event. In fact, the Bible expressly teaches the opposite of imminence, for 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 says that Christ can’t come and gather together the church until after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11), which cannot occur until after the Jewish temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem; Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13 shows the church in the tribulation; and Matthew 24:29-31 says that Jesus will come to gather together the church after the tribulation.

    No scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. The danger with the pre-trib teaching is that it attempts to give the church a false hope that it won’t have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them to suffer like that (Matthew 24:9-13); or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God’s will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), we will have a better chance of not being offended and of not being deceived when the suffering comes, and we will be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.

    Actually Jesus is asked only two questions before His Olivet Discourse:

    Matthew 24:3
    1. When shall these things be?
    2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (or age)?

    Mark 13:4
    1. When shall these things be?
    2. What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

    Luke 21:7
    1. When shall these things be?
    2. What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

    Regarding the second question, in Matthew 24, verses 27-31 refer to the same “coming of the Son of man” as verses 37-51.

    The second question in no way refers to the end of a church age because the scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21). The “times of the Gentiles” referred to in Luke 21:24 cannot be fulfilled before the tribulation because they will still be treading down Jerusalem during the tribulation (Revelation 11:2). The second question in no way refers to the end of an age of grace because the scriptures nowhere refer to an age of grace but show grace operating in the Old Testament (see Genesis 6:8 and Exodus 33:17 for just two examples of a myriad of such references) and the saved saints in the tribulation (e.g. Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13) will be under God’s grace.

    Matthew 24 is written for all believers, whether Jewish believers or Gentile believers. Just as Matthew 24:36-51 is written for the church, so Matthew 24:4-35 is written for the church. Jesus is addressing the same “ye” in Matthew 24:15 (“ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation”) that he is addressing in Matthew 24:44 (“be ye also ready).

    The church and “the Jews” are not mutually exclusive, for Peter and Paul and Barnabas are all Apostles of the church and “Jews” at the same time (Galatians 2:13-15; Acts 22:3; Acts 21:39), just as Aquila and Apollos are members of the church and “Jews” at the same time (Acts 18:2; Acts 18:24), and just as the early church included “thousands of Jews” who were believers (Acts 21:20), and just as the church today still includes a great many believing Jews, for all believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13). The believers who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be from every people (Revelation 7:9-14), not just the Jews.
     

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