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Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by KPBAP, Jan 29, 2007.
When does one execute power and authority??
From a legal perspective, Southwestern Seminary should be extremely grateful to the professor for not filing suit and taking the floor out from underneath them. She could own the campus if she wanted to.
If a seminary were an extension of a single, local church, as an equipping ministry of that one congregation, perhaps the contention that a woman teaching in the position is not consistent with scripture would have some merit. However, that's not the issue here.
The fact of the matter is that they offered her a position in good faith, and then took it away from her in bad faith. Let's cut to the chase. They LIED to her. They were DISHONEST, and then they tried to cover it up and keep it a secret. Dr. Klouda kept the secret, and quietly went to another job. That's a testimony to her faith.
What a great example the leadership of Southwestern Seminary has set for the young men and women (probably a tiny number, considering) who are training for the ministry there. Sounds like a great place to go to seminary, a school that will teach you to lie, treat people with contempt and then try to cover it up.
Is that the definition of "conservative theology"?
Most likely SWBTS falls under a religious organization and not a school. Therefore the TEC will probably do nothing. It ought to speak volumes to prospective professors.
Most high school teachers will start with a higher salary than a starting professor at SWBTS. A retiring professor from SWBTS will make about the same as a starting professor at a secular university.
They lied to her, but who stood for justice and the ethical treatment of employees?
You're not suggesting that Dr. Klouda should have risked her severance and her husband's insurance benefits to make that stand herself, are you? It's pretty easy to see what happens when you cross the administration at Southwestern Seminary. It's good to see there are still some people in the SBC who are willing to stand for what's right.
If you're thinking about other faculty members, then you need to know that every faculty member has to sign an agreement that they will not say anything critical of the seminary, nor do anything that might in any way damage the reputation of the seminary. That gag order was instituted about the time they brought in Ken Hemphill.
And students face consequences too. In 1994, during my last semester at SWBTS, Ken Hemphill told me in no uncertain terms that if I said or did anything that might cause the trustees to get upset with me, I would personally face severe consequences for anything I say or wrote.
Let's not forget that this kind of thing is the usual course at Southwestern over the last 15 years or so.
* They wanted to get rid of Dilday so they praised him one morning before the students and fired him that night
* Dr. Crutchley was "promoted" from Dean of the School of Theology to Dean of Future Visioneering (or whatever that was) after Dr. Hemphill had to hire several new administration figures
* The whole registrar thing
* Dr. Karen Bullock, one of the finest educators was released in a similiar way to Dr. Klouda
* Dr. Klouda was released after her time at Southwestern which brings us to the current issues at play
I just don't understand why this is all happening. It saddens me. We are Christians, we are supposed to be lights to the world with our testimony. While I certainly agree that if someone is doing a poor job or violating established rules than we need to relieve them of their employment, but when we do that should we not allow them more than the secular world allows with severence and job placement opportunities?
You're absolutely right. This is nothing new.
Yep. And just try to get a straight story regarding why they changed the locks to the door of the president's office during his final meeting with the trustees...
And you forgot to mention how Hemphill was "promoted" out of the presidency to make room for Paige Patterson. (Those of us in Fort Worth knew from the very beginning that Patterson was coming, but the whole story was whitewashed in Baptist Press.)
You will know them by their fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit. You can judge the spirituality and character of others by the way they conduct themselves.
Jesus said, "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
John wrote about the implications of Jesus' teaching:
1 John 2:3-11
"By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
"Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.
"The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes."
I look at that statement above by gb93433 about the salaries, and what does that say to the outside world? What kind of an example do we set when we pay our denominational employees so little? Several years ago, one of my college buddies who majored in business was excited when Lifeway was hiring store managers. Apparently they were expanding or had vacancies, and he applied. A few days later, I asked him how things went, and he told me they offered him the job, but he had to turn it down because the salary was less than half of what he was making as the manager of a Barnes and Noble. I was shocked when I found out what the pay and benefits amounted to.
I'm also wondering if the contracts at Southwestern are worth the paper they are printed on. Texas is an at-will employment state, which means that an employer can change the status of an employee at any time, without reason or cause. Of course, in relationships between Christians, the scripture is violated when such a promise is broken, but that apparently doesn't bother Southwestern's administration, which tells me they can ignore the Bible whenever they want to. So much for their declaration of belief in its inerrancy and infallibility.
I have four boys in a private, Christian school. When I found out a couple of years ago what the teachers were being paid, I decided to take a stand for justice and morality, knowing that to raise the salaries would cost me in tuition and fees. The teachers were grateful, as were a few other parents and families whose conscience was bothering them about it, but the general reaction was anger. People declared that public school teachers (who make about $35,000 a year in Tennessee on the average) were overpaid, and that advocating for our teachers to make more than half of what they make was just contributing to the problems that public education experienced. The bottom line was that they wanted to get off on the cheap and still have their kids in a private school. I still wonder what the outside world thinks about a Christian organization that pays its employees so poorly, has some people who gripe because the wives of teachers and administrators work instead of staying home where they belong, and doesn't help with health insurance.
The actions of this seminary are saying a whole lot more than the bumbling attempts by their trustee chairman to explain it away. I think every prospective student needs to ask, "Can I trust them to teach me correctly?" Then go somewhere else.
I know I am going to get blasted for this, but thats ok. I just see this as a manifestation of how extreme fundamentalism has bled into and influenced Southern Baptist life. That can be seen at so many levels, ( national, state, and local) especially here where I live. Why cant we let fundamentalists be fundamentalists and Southern Baptists be Southern Baptists? When will we stop this? I almost wish Dr. Klouda would make a stink, and maybe we as Southern Baptists will start thinking for ourselves and get off our duffs.
And, yes, Dr Patterson has had these issues in every area he has touched (quite a few of them) thus the spread of the influence (which I believe to be intentional).
Just a question. Did Patterson have these problems when he moved to Southeastern?
In another place on this forum I have expressed by disagreement with Southwestern's policy and actions. On this and the tongues issue.
We will wait and see when the bomb explodes.
God has a way of humbling those who refuse to humble themselves and it is usually not in a nice way.
Why should we expect to see anything different than what is currently happening because the same trustees who brought on Hemphill are the same trustees (liars) who lied about Dilday? Many are the same trustees (who had proven themselves as liars) who brought on Hemphill and then also brought on Patterson. If the SBC keeps on doing what they have always done they will keep getting the same thing they have always gotten.
When people credited Patterson as bringing about the conservative resurgence many of the professors at SWBTS laughed because long before Patterson came on the scene the professors at SWBTS were committed to the truth of scripture.
When Dilday was fired many of the students at SWBTS who were from the eastern U.S. said that if the fundamentalists were going to rule they might as well go closer to home. So many did. Also, a portion of the students at SEBTS were college students with a cheaper tuition than most SBC undergraduate schools.
Does anyone have to wonder what the world thinks of Patterson and the trustees getting rid of Klouda when they read the local newspaper? Does anyone have to wonder what the world think of the trustees when they lied about Dilday and it was published in the local newspaper in Ft. Worth? Those men at SWBTS need to be held accountable to the convention. They certainly are not anything like Billy Graham and how he decided to be held accountable.
I worked for a Christian man years ago who paid his employees on the average of 16% more than anyone else. he had the most business and profits in the industry. God blessed him. It was a great pleasure to work for him and to know that he had a testimony I could share in.
When I went into business I did the same thing and did quite well.
What short sighted people do not realize is that their employees are not an expense but an asset. It has been proven many times in quality, profits, and sales.
There should be great concern over the issues with Dr. Patterson and SWBTS. He has had a major influence over SBC life and it seems he feels that whatever he says should go. I agree with Tater and think there is definitely a strong connection between this and extreme fundamentalism that is influencing our churches. There is so much arrogance in such things that it is very sad and puts a bad name on the SBC, our pastors and our churches.
This is just a question, because I'm not sure. Legally, could Southwestern fire a professor who divorces his wife for no other reason than simply that it doesn't want that person teaching their students when there are others (i.e., non-divorced with the same credentials) who could do the same or better job?
I'm no attorney, but it seems that if such a condition were in the prof's contract, the institution could dismiss him.
I'll put it this way - I am a big fan of BH Carroll Theological Institute, Truett and Logsden, the long PP stays at SWBTS the better off those seminaries are. Long Live Pope Paige!!
He has huge problems - a declining enrollment, trying to build a huge edifice to himself, rising costs, more administrators and VPs (with seminary paid cars) than you can shake a stick at. One wonders when and if the trustees will wake up - or is he too much of an institution and "hero" of the conservative resurgence to do anything about?
While I have an issue or two with Dr. Patterson myself, don't you think the charge of "trying to build a huge edifice to himself" a bit over the top? That gets into motives, and that's an area we are incapable of truly judging (Matt 7:1).
What's behind the post?
This is an overstatement at best and falsehood at worse. How much about legal employment practices do you know? I seriously doubt, from what I’ve read, that she has sustainable grounds for a wrongful termination suit.
That’s your viewpoint but others may see it differently based on a Biblical interpretation.
This is strong language. Lying carries the intention to deceive. Did they intend to deceive her when they offered employment? If so, who did this? How do you know?
Again, you are using emotionally-laden language. Who hired her? Did Dr. Patterson? Is Dr. Patterson obligated to follow the same course of action and philosophy as his predecessor? Does the President have the prerogative of setting the course of the institution? If so, could he not honorably reverse a bad decision of his predecessor? Would Dr. Patterson have been justified in dismissing a homosexual hired by his predecessor? If so, then you are agreed in principle that he has the prerogative and we are just quibbling about when it may be exercised.
Not necessarily. There is not necessarily a causal relationship here because people without faith have done the same.
This sounds a bit like sarcasm and a bitter spirit. I think you are just venting your spleen.
So, this is the bottom line. You just don’t like Dr. Patterson’s "conservative theology” and you question his integrity, manhood, patriotism, etc. Shame on you! Your post speaks volumes more about your character than Dr. Patterson’s, I think.