Praying for others

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by ScottEmerson, Feb 10, 2005.

  1. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
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    During a college Bible study on Romans (yes, we were in Romans 9), the students brought up a good question. Whether one is Calvinist or Arminian, this seems to be a difficult questino to answer.

    Why pray that ___________ gets saved?

    If you're Calvinist, your prayer seems to have no effect (as one is either elect or not elect.) If you're Arminian, your prayer seems to be that God overrules this person's free will.

    So, how many of you pray for others to be saved? What is your philosophical and Scriptural reasons for doing so or not doing so?

    SEC
     
  2. Pastor Larry

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    The only reason to pray is if you are a Calvinist. Your prayer does good because that is how God has chosen to work. He who ordained the end (salvation of X) ordained the means (Y to pray for X) and chose that prayer would be an inherent part of htat plan.

    The person with no reason to pray is the arminian. They are praying for God to do the very thing they hate him doing ...
     
  3. dianetavegia

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    Well since I'm neither C/A, I pray for the Holy Spirit to touch the heart of those I witness to and work in their lives.


    Matt 9:37 Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. 38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest."
     
  4. padredurand

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    Pastor Larry, when did Arminians start hating to see people get saved? That's an awful broad brush to be painting with...
     
  5. ScottEmerson

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    That's strange, Larry. Do you have Biblical support for praying for others' salvation specifically? What happens if a person chooses not to pray for another person?
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    What??? I didn't say they hate to see people getting saved. BUt prayers are prayers for God to intervene, thus overruling or at the very least affecting their free will ... and they hate that God would inject himself him such a way. That is their complaint about calvinism, that God allegedly overrules free will.

    The Bible specifically commands us to pray for the spread of the gospel and the salvation of people, and that would include the salvation of specific people.

    It depends. In some cases they could be sinning, but the fact that I don't pray for the salvation of people I don't know means nothing happens. The great thing about the God of the Bible is that he is control of all this.

    If the arminian conception is true, then there is a serious problem with God's respecting of persons. In their conception, people who are prayed for get a little extra boost of some sort from God that others don't have. God is therefore showing respect ot people who have praying friends. I reject that concept of God as unbiblical.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    Don't you mean denial of the truth is what I hate most about Calvinism. You remember Changing the meanings of words to make it fit a pitiful doctrine. Insisting that Predestination is unalterable denying that all things are possible with God. Claiming the tulip is truth of which none of it is backed up by scripture. You know unconditional election that really isn't unconditional. Limiting atonement so that only calvinist will be in Heaven.
    I pray all the time for people who need Christ in there lives begging God to not give up on them.
    I believe eveyone can reach a point in there lives that will get them to choose Christ that place is usually the bottom somewhere. But even there some just will not come.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Keep it on topic, Mike.
     
  9. Monergist

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    Calvinists believe that God appoints the means as well as the end. Which is why we preach, pray, evangelize, etc.
     
  10. ScottEmerson

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    Allow me to alter the question just a little, since I'm under the impression that the Calvinists are saying one thing, but meaning another.

    Is there anything that will not happen if I do not pray that would happen if I do? (Or anyone else.)
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    Scott,

    Prayers are a part of the eternal plan of God. He who ordains the ends (salvation) ordains the means (prayer, sharing the gospel, life circumstances, etc).
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    Larry the topic is prayer for others. I responded to your comments about it. I believe, that is staying on topic.
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  13. johnp.

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    Hello ScottEmerson.

    I agree with Pastor Larry's answer.

    If I pray for x it is because God caused me to pray for x. If I do not pray for x it is because God has not caused me to pray for x. If I do pray for x because God caused me to pray for x that does not mean that x gets what he needs, God may say no! If I don't pray for x he may still get what he needs because if God wants x prayed for He will ensure x is prayed for by the one He chose to pray for x before the creation of the world.
    RO 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
    We do not know what to pray for but the Holy Spirit does and He prays on our behalf. Our prayers have no effect attributable to us but we get to talk with God. Our prayers are only useful for us as we commune with God often at the point of caring for others. He likes that in us.

    I have on occasion prayed for my nearest and dearest and I have prayed for strangers when I have felt the need to but not often. I like to know the will of God before I pray. Most of my prayers centre on me. I know what God wants for me so I pray for what He wants to give me. I feel as if I will be more useful to those around me if I am right. I trust the Holy Spirit to be about His business in that He will ignore my prayers and pray proper ones for me. :cool:
    What do you think, does that make sense?

    johnp.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    Larry the topic is prayer for others. I responded to your comments about it. I believe, that is staying on topic.
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Your first paragraph did not address prayer for anyone. I let it stand rather than editing it. Post here only on topic.
     
  15. ScottEmerson

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    So if what we pray for is ordained, then if I choose never to pray as a Christian, is that not ordained as well?
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    Ultimately yes, but you are still responsible for your sinfulness in refusing to pray. That doesn't make God responsible. That is part of the inscrutableness of God.
     
  17. padredurand

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    I have a problem with the supposition that to pray or for whom we pray is predicated on whether one falls toward Calvin, Arminius or somewhere in between. Perhaps the difficulty is our attitude toward prayer. Prayer is not a shopping list presented to a benevolent sugar daddy trusting - or at times insisting - our requests be granted. All prayer is answered in ways consistent with God's will.

    We pray because it is commanded of us to do so. Even though we are very specific about our requests, "(b)e anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. Philippians 4:6NAS the "answer" to that prayer is the Lord's business be it yes, no or wait.

    For example; I pray daily for my sibling's salvation. I will continue to do so until either they or I cease this mortal life or I hear their testimony. My request, as is my desire, is for their salvation, I have no doubt the Lord hears my prayer and yet I pray knowing that at the heart of every petition is a conditional clause, "Not my will, but Thine."

    My concern for the C/A supposition is that we consider and thereby reduce prayer to nothing more than validation for the proper number of "points" to our system of belief.
     
  18. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Padredurand;
    I do the same and it is always by His will. I pray for the Salvation of a lot of people even though I know it isn't up to my prayer but up to God's will. My Praying for another's Salvation is a matter of loving our neighbors as our selves. Well you have to admit it's hard not to Love the one you are praying for.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  19. ScottEmerson

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    So God's responsible, but He's not responsible? He ordained it, but it's not His fault? God caused it, but He doesn't get the blame? Does anyone else see the bizarre-ness of this statement?
     
  20. johnp.

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    Hello ScottEmerson.

    Yes I do. The same answer remains, who are you to talk back to God?
    I think your statement is essentially correct hold on to it.

    johnp.
     

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