Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib.....Where Are You, and Why?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by eightball, May 15, 2010.

  1. eightball

    eightball
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    I'm not a religious scholar nor an acredited theologian...just a lay person, who reads the bible, and also tries to read books/literature by Christian authors that seem to have deep convictions based on a biblical foundation.

    Over the years, while growing up in a strong bible church, all I heard is, "We will be taken up before all hell breaks loose" so "don't worry fellow Christian", "just be that watchman as Christ called us to be, and be vigilant for that time will come when God says so."

    When I finally got into the Epistles and also read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John over and over again, I was picking up a different message.

    This Bride........"us"......is suppose to be presented to the "Groom".......spotless, and beautiful......and fully prepared......At this time.....the "Bride" seems to be rather lethargic, and not-so-spotless, in many parts of the world........especially in the Western world........namely the U.S...

    Most Christians that I know, figure that when the Anti-Christ comes........the "Bride" will be raptured before he/anti-christ get's going persecuting both Jews, and folks that come to salvation after the "rapture".
    *****
    When I read the scriptures, minus all the "rah rah" upbeat "we'll get raptured" talk, I am picking up a different message. That message is that we, the Church/Bride will endure tribulations, and then meet Christ in His second coming. The bride will be purged of all "dross", and will be "snowy white" and pure, and ready to receive her Groom.
    ****
    When I've expressed this to some of my fellow Christians they just "can't" accept that we the church would be allowed to face the Anti-Christ's reign..........

    Some how, it seems like there's this wishful, hopeful thinking that pervades the church that God wouldn't possibly allow His children to endure such hardship/tribulation/danger............Yet, Paul.......O.T. and N.T. study on my own seems to say otherwise. This earthsuit of ours can be destroyed, but our souls are secure in Christ.............right? Seems like pre-trib thinking is premised and empowered by the desire to avoid discomfort? Discomfort in our current Christian lives is supposed to lead to growth and maturity if we approach that "trial/s" as God's loving authorship. No likes trials..........,but seems that the book of Job showed us something very special, and important about tribulations on earth.
    *****
    What say you folks?
    *******
    Moderator: Didn't put this in the Baptist section of discussion as I thought that this covered the who gamut of believers which include Baptists, and many other denominations, and non-denominations.
    *****
     
    #1 eightball, May 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2010
  2. lori4dogs

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    Catholics tend to agree with St. Augustine and with the amillennialists (typically we don't use the term). But I think St. Peter had excellent perspective:

    "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" 2 Pet. 3:8–14.

    The Baptist theologian Dale Moody, wrote the following: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
    . . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" The Word of Truth, 556–7.
     
  3. lori4dogs

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    Did Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Wesley, John Wesley, John Knox, Isaac Newton, John Calvin, George Whitfield, John Newton, Matthew Henry, or John Wycliffe ever talk about a Pre-Trib Rapture? The answer is no. There was no such concept around in their day.
     
  4. steaver

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    When was "their day"?

    I believe most if not all of these came out of the RCC. Since the RCC teaches purgatory as a final cleansing to prepare the Christian for the Groom it is only fitting that these would have no problem with a Christian suffering the antichrist as some sort of final purging as well.

    Eightball probably does not believe in a RCC purgatory for a final cleansing before the Groom. Yet what he says here is basically the same concept that Christians need some period of purging before they can meet the Groom. However, this conclusion would only allow for a small percentage of all saints throughout history getting this final purging before the Groom. So I doubt "purging the dross" has anything to do with the tribulation.

    As far as not wanting to suffer as a Christian, it matters not to me what God allows to cause me suffering, for anything I must go through adds nothing to the pure white robe I have already been given through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

    Personally I see pre-trib in the scriptures, but if that is wrong, praise God anyways and bring it on!
     
  5. Darrell C

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    If you are speaking about D.L. Moody, it has also been said that He was not one who spent much time in prayer.

    God bless.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I would argue that the 1000 years of Rev 20 are "real".

    Peter's statement is not a time ruler saying "no such thing as a 1000 years" since in fact the earth itself has existed for more than 1000 years and Moses tells us about it in the book of Genesis.

    Furthermore the "with God 1 day IS AS 1000 years AND 1000 years is AS a day" if taken to the extreme of amillennialism would logically have to conclude that there is neither a 1000 years NOR a day!

    Obviously the Amillennial view will need some other text to make its case.

    While I can certainly agree with Moody's statements above - I simply point out that a post-trib pre-millennium rapture solves the problems of the pre-trib rapture that Moody has correctly observed above - while avoiding the deny-all pitfall of amillennialism.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    At First I thought she was talking about D.L Moody as well - but that is not the case.

    Still I must say - it is a bit surprising to see baptist after baptist slamming D.L Moody.

    Who woulda thought they would be so anxious to go there?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. DHK

    DHK
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    Read here:
    http://archives.sbts.edu/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID325566_CHID717902_CIID1988686,00.html

    So who cares Dale Moody said. He was a rank liberal. He studied under Tillich, Brunner, Barth--those who were known to deny the fundamentals of the faith. Those are not the kind of "Baptist Theologians" that we refer to.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Lori makes a good point

    The fact that no one had invented a pre-trib rapture at that point is not necessarily a reflection on the subject of purgatory.

    Given the 50 million Christians killed in the dark ages - it is very hard to imagine a "Christians will never suffer persecution" doctrine getting off the ground. Given that Christ himself predicts extreme persecution of Christians in John 16 it is hard to justify that "never will be persecuted" idea sola-scriptura.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    The pre-trib idea was invented later than Wycliffe and Calvin. But that was "a bit late" given that over 50 million Christians were killed in the dark ages.

    But post-trib pre-millennial IS in Matt 24 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... he will gather His elect from the four corners of the earth". At that point we have the "FIRST resurrection" described in Rev 20:4-5 which is the one where the saints are raised - as Paul points out in 1Thess 4 "The dead in Christ will rist FIRST".

    And then as Rev 20 says "the REST of the dead did not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, May 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2010
  11. Darrell C

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    Hello eightball,

    I can assure you there are more than three passages that indicate that the Church will be removed.

    I will say that I (and anyone who is honest) will admit, that with a few doctrines, there is room for error on both sides, so we should be careful about being dogmatic.

    For example, how many resurrections will there be?

    But back to the topic at hand, here are a few passages (and its late, so just a few).


    Revelation 3

    7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

    8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

    9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


    What is the hour of temptation that is to try the whole earth?

    I think it safe to say this speaks of the tribulation that will shortly be described in the following chapters.

    Notice the open door which no man can shut for the overcomer, and immediately in the following chapter:

    Revelation 4

    1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


    What is an overcomer?


    1 John 5

    1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


    Our Lord speaks to those who are in Christ...this is he who is the overcomer.

    A few quick thoughts:

    The tribulation I believe firmly to be Daniels seventieth week, which is a time of judgment for Israel, though the earth will reap its destruction.

    The Church is not mentioned until (I think) chapter 19...why not?

    Could it be, that because it is a time God is dealing with Israel, this is why they are not mentioned?

    Well, thats it for me tonight...my brain is tired.

    One last thing...

    The claim of some is that the rapture was never thought of until the 19th century, but I suggest that Paul as teaching it in the first.

    God bless.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    And you are right.

    In Matt 24:21 "Then there will be a GREAT TRIBULATION"

    followed by Matt 24:29 "Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days "

    and then we see the description of the 2nd coming events followed by Matt 24:31 He will "Gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of teh sky to the other".

    (I.e the great rapture event at the end of the tribulation and before the millennium)


    Here is an easy clue for debunking the "no tribulation for saints" idea - it is a really big "hint". -- 50 million saints slaughtered during the dark ages!

    Fox's book of martyrs anyone?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    The message to the seven churches address the condition of the church in seven distinct periods of history - from Ephesus in the first century - all the way to Laodicea in the present age. The last and final phase of the church.

    Rev 3:7 deals with the prior age to this present one - the age of the church of Philadelphia. It was the church of the late 18th and early 19th century.

    They were spared the coming tribulation in that - that entire generation lived and died before the final tribulation.

    Nothing in Rev 3 states the the "open door" is a way of sparing someone from tribulation.


    John was taken up - through that open door to view things in heaven and in the future. If we were to argue that the open door through which John passed in the first century AD in Rev 4 - was the rapture of the church, then I have some very bad news for the group -- we all MISSED it because John lived almost 2000 years ago!

    Fortunately Rev 4 makes no mention at all of the entire church going up through the door into heaven in the first century - other than John himself.


    As James 2 points out - faith that actually obeys the Word of God - is living faith - otherwise as James asks "can that faith save him"??

    In 1Cor 7:19 Paul makes the point "but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" thus agreeing with John's point in 1John 5.

    In Romans 2 Paul describes the life of the overcommer - vs the life of those who remain in a sinless lost state.


    That is a seriously flawed Bible model because it takes a 490 year time prophecy in Dan 9 that accurately predicts the first coming of Christ (as all scholars agree) and the procedes to chop up the timeline - snipping off the last 7 years and inserting a gap of "undetermined time" into it - tossing it down to the end of earth's history as if that is what we "normally do with Bible timelines".

    The key to the Bible student that such a wrenching of any timeline is totally impossible is to "notice" the start of Daniel 9 where the 70 year timeline of Jeremiah is also being discussed. IMAGINE the chaos and confusion of one were to ALSO take the last 7 years from that 70 year timeline at the start of Daniel 9 and insert a time gap of undetermined time there as WELL. The Jews would never ever have left Babylon.

    The model of chopping up Bible timelines and inserting time gaps into them - does not work for any Bible timeline in all of scripture.

    This is something pretty hard not to notice in my humble opinion.

    The Rapture is clearly presented in 1Thess 4. But it is not pre-trib or mid-trib. Because Matt 24 places it post-trib and Rev 20 makes it pre-mill while 2Thess2 places it after the appearance of the antichrist. Indeed "our gathering together to Him" and the rapture of the living saints as well as the "dead in Christ" - happens as scripture says "immediately after the tribulation of those days". Matt 24

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. DHK

    DHK
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    Bob, what does marriage (1Cor.7:19), have to do with pre-trib, etc.?
    Stay on topic, by not taking Scripture out of context.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    I responded to Darrell's point on "overcommers" from 1John 5:1-6 - showing that John and Paul are both in agreement on the subject of the commandments of God.

    The Rev 3 point about "he who overcomes" came up in his comments.

    Feel free to add a comment to that discussion.
     
  16. DHK

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    4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    If you are contradicting the truths found in these scriptures then you are taking Scripture out of context, for the Bible does not contradict itself.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    And then I show a strong degree of agreement between John's points (as quoted by Darrell) above and other Bible writers.




    Innexplicably - DHK responds



    Let the reader decide.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. eightball

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    Some one earlier in the first page of replys indicated that I 8-ball was following the RCC/Purgatory angle on the "bride" being put through tribulation to remove the "dross".

    Couldn't be futher from my belief.....but maybe my explanation or example mislead in some way. For that, I apologize.

    I do gleen from the scriptures that regardless of our lives here on earth as true believers, we are saved by faith, and it is the grace of God(unmerited favor/love).

    Never the less, I go back to the "Job" scenario in the O.T., and Job was not the same man he started out as in Chapter 1. God deemed him/Job a righteous man from the beginning or before all the tribulation allowed by God via Satan ocurred, but when reading the last chapter/s of Job, we have a different man here.

    The Difference: When we become new Christians, we learn about how we abide in Him, and our hunger for His Word is incredible, as everything that is authored by God makes Spiritual sense. Truly we are new creature/creations in Christ.

    With that, I think that Christians can look back on their beginnings, and look at the present and attest in most cases to having gained more wisdom, and understanding of God's ways, and Word, and it hasn't come the easy-way.

    So with that application, I wasn't trying to portray, the pre-trib Bride as tainted as in unclean/sinful. What I meant was a bride that could like all of us gain more wisdom/knowledge of our Father or more maturity.

    Instead of brides running around looking for oil for their lamps at the last minute before the bridegroom comes, they are fully stocked with lamp-oil.
    *******
    I do not accept the "purgatory" doctrine. I am not RCC. :)
     
  19. steaver

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    For what purpose would those Christians living at the time of the antichrist need to gain more wisdom and more knowledge from God?

    At the end of the tribulation, after the regeneration of all things, would these Christians know more about God than those Christians who never went through any trials?

    You have a point in that trials teach us and strengthen us but it is for further earthly ministry. Once the great commission is fulfilled and all are gathered with Jesus, will some have greater knowledge of God than others? Or will all God's children know God equally?
     
  20. Darrell C

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    Hello eightball, and all.

    I knew that responding to this thread would bring about what some come to the debate table to do...debate.

    Which in and of itself is a good thing.

    It causes us to examine our beliefs.

    So, here is the next scripture I would present for why I believe in the rapture (and remember, guys and gals, this is just my belief, I have friends that do not hold to the rapture teaching, and I believe both they and I belong to the Lord...so let us try to exhibit a little of the grace that God has bestowed upon us, and just debate).

    The Rapture of the Church...who's mythtaken?
    (just in case it wasn't noticed, that is supposed to be humor)


    The Wrath of God

    Many use the idea that rapture believers think God will keep them from tribulation, which is promised to those who overcome, and present the tribulation which the saints of history have faced.

    From the Apostles to those persecuted in antichrist nations around the world today, Christians have suffered tribulation.

    They say, "If God means to 'whisk us away' from tribulation, explain all of the Christians who have died for Christ!"

    "It would be unfair of God to 'poof up' the Church after He has allowed so many to suffer!"

    First, as a rapture believer, I have no misconceptions of the tribulation that not only happens, but was promised would come:

    John 16:33 (King James Version)

    33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


    A simple word study on tribulation will easily show that we can distinguish a difference between tribulation, and Tribulation.

    Which is why I pointed out that The Tribulation is a time of Judgment on this earth, appointed to Israel and the unbelieving world population.

    This is the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole earth.

    Next stop: Wrath.

    And a specific wrath, the Wrath of God.

    We who are in Christ are delivered from the wrath of God to Come, both eternal and temporal. When God judges the earth, we will not fall under this wrath.

    But don't take my word for it:

    Zephaniah 1:15 (King James Version)

    15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,


    What is that day? As I said before, the Tribulation is the Day of the Lord.

    Zephaniah 1:14 (King James Version)

    14The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.


    Now see v. 15 again:

    Zephaniah 1:15 (King James Version)

    15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,


    Daniel's seventieth week, or, the time of Jacobs Trouble...is the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation.

    Let's look at God's wrath in the New Testament (for the time fails me to tell you of...) (sorry, more humor...almost)

    Luke 3:7 (King James Version)

    7Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


    Is our Lord speaking of the wrath of the Roman Empire? Nero?

    He is speaking of the wrath that will befall all those who have turned away from Him. Did He not come to seek and to save that which was lost?

    In the companion passage of Matthew 24, we see:

    Luke 21:23 (King James Version)

    23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


    A.D. 70? Some think so. But if you look at all scripture involved, you will see that the prophecies have not been fulfilled completely in that destruction.

    And how should we expect all prophecy to be fulfilled? Completely, lacking nothing.

    Romans 1:18 (King James Version)

    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


    Romans 2:5 (King James Version)

    5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


    Romans 5:9 (King James Version)

    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


    Ephesians 2:3 (King James Version)

    3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


    Ephesians 5:6 (King James Version)

    6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.



    Colossians 3:6 (King James Version)

    6For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:


    1 Thessalonians 5:9 (King James Version)

    9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


    While some, like this last, have to do with eternal wrath, so far these verse do make it plain that God's wrath will fall on those who reject Him.

    Revelation 6:16 (King James Version)

    16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


    Revelation 6:17 (King James Version)

    17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    Okay, okay, one more...

    Revelation 16
    1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.



    It is easy to see that the wrath of God is spoken of in relation to both the coming Day of the Lord, which will be poured out upon the earth (which I believe is the hour of trial which shall befall the whole earth)...

    And, the eternal wrath which God shall impose on those who reject Him in ther Person of Jesus Christ.

    Consider:

    2 Thessalonians 1


    4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

    Notice the reference to temporal tribulation.

    5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

    6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

    7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    Now notice, what follows is what happens at the coming of Jesus Christ.

    8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Here I see the Day of the Lord, and temporal wrath.

    9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    And here is without doubt eternal wrath.

    10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



    We see who the wrath of God falls upon. The question is, what kind of wrath and when?

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 (King James Version)

    10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


    Here, because of the reference to His death, I see deliverance from eternal wrath spoken of.

    But here:

    Revelation 3:10 (King James Version)

    10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


    There is no missing the fact that the hour of temptation which shall come upon the whole world is speaking temporally.

    Let's back up a few verses and see when this will occur.

    This is from the letter to the Church at Sardis:

    Revelation 3:3 (King James Version)

    3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


    Sound familiar?

    1 Thessalonians 5:2 (King James Version)

    2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


    Notice carefully that this, again, is quite clearly speaking of the Day of the Lord.

    It will come without warning...

    For those who reject Christ.

    But, brethren, comfort one another with these words...

    1 Thessalonians 5:4 (King James Version)

    4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


    Now, do I think this will convince anybody that the rapture will happen, and that the Church will be kept from the Tribulation?

    Hardly, but, I've said it before...if anyone wants to convince me I'm wrong about this, they will have to do better than those who have come before them have.

    God bless.
     

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