Pre-Trib - not strongly supported Biblically

Grasshopper: "So Ed, do you have some sort of LaHaye Prophecy
Commentary computer disc ? You just click on a topic
and out spews Pre-Mill Disp?"

Short answer: no.

Longer answer:
You done gone and barked up the wrong tree.
In July 1984 (nearly 20 years ago) i started posting
on bulletin boards. In 20 years one can develop quite
a bit of data. I probably have more data than
LaHaye. What were you doing 20 years ago when i started
arguing pretrib on-line?

Brother DeafPosttrib: as usual, you omit Romans 11
from you Bible, Revelation 20, and other significatnt
pasages. Meanwhile, I repent to all present that
i keep stealing candy from a baby. I'll try to
avoid the temptation in the future.
Meanwhile, figure out how to make larger fonts,
your assumptions look more like truth if in bigger letters.

 

Rev. 11:3 refers to 3 1/2 years.
Rev. 12:6 refers to 3 1/2 years.
================================
Total ------------- 7 years!

Rev. 11:3 == 1260 days (3 1/2 years)
Rev. 12:6 == 1260 days (3 1/2 years)
====================================
Total ------ 2520 days (7 years)

 

Ed,

I never saying that I omit Romans 11 from the Bible. I agree with Romans chapter 11 very clear 100%.

Romans chapter 11 talk about the olive tree. Apostle Paul tells us, God does not forsake his people(Jews)- vs. 1. But, God removed Jews from the tree because of their unbelief. Only believing Jews remain stay on the same tree. Gentiles are now grafted into tree join with believing Jews together.

It is happening right now since Calvary - Romans 11:25.

So, all Israel shall be saved - vs. 26 will be fulfilled at the second advent as it will be completed for both Jews and Gentiles all be saved. I mean, Christ will be done with built the Church (Matt 16:18). 'All' does not mean ALL people in the world shall be saved. It means, every person whosever believed in Jesus Christ, shall be saved. Not even one person miss the number of the Church. Builting the Church will be completed at the second advent, as we shall marry to Christ.

I never saying that I omit Revelation chapter 20 from the Bible. I know why you saying it, because you know that I am amill.

I agree with Revelation chapter 20 100% compeletely.

I understanding Revelation 20 differently as what premill's view on Revelation 20. Premill emphasis on Reveleation 20 - 'a thousand years' shall be literally event. Often premill intepreting many verses into literally.

Not always every scripture are literal. Many verses have spiritual meanings, symbol meaning, figurative meaning. EVEN several verses do have literal meaning too!!

Book of Revelation is full with symbols and figuratives. Many Christians know that. I know Revelation have lot of symbols since I was very young Christians years ago.

Revelation 20 is a heavily symbolic meaning. No amill deny Revelation 20. Amill believes Revelation 20 very strong as I does. Amill interpreting Revelation 20 differently as what premill interpreting it.

Myself was premill before for a long time.

Premill oftens accuse on amill, that they saying amill omit Revelation 20. They misunderstand what amill really believe. Myself misundertood what amill really believe while I was premill.

Later, I will start new thread or topic on Revelation 20, to explain what it talks about.

Askjo,

I have been reading throughout all chapters of Revelation many times for many years. I never tired of read it, and I still learning on it till I dies or Lord comes.

In my early Christian life, I thought Revelation was written in chronological order for example- 7 seals in the first 3 1/2 years of of seven year tribulation period. 7 trumpets in the middle of seven year tribulation period. 7 vials in the last 3 1/2 years of seven year tribulation period.

Now, I realized all seals, trumpets, and vials all merge together toward the end at the second advent.

Book of Revelation have retelling events, and parallels.

I urge every Christians read Revelation repeat and repeat very carefully. Take time to read and will understand what it talking about.

I have been read Revelation repeat and repeat many times, as I getting understand it better and better by time to time.

Revelation seems deep and complex. Many Christians do not want to read it, they think it is complex and deep. Well, they should read it repeat and repeat more often, will get understand it little bit better, take their time to read it.

I can see there is only 3 1/2 years or 42 months in Revelation, because it retelling the events with parallels. I do not see seven year anywhere in Revelation.

There is no evidence anywhere in the Bible saying seven year of tribulation period.

Early Church does not teaching there shall be seven year of tribulation period.

Till during 19th Century, dispensationalism doctrine developed, and teach there shall be seven year of tribulation period because of Daniel 9:24-27 saying so.

Early Church does not teaching on Daniel 9:24-27 that the Antichrist shall sign peace treaty with Israel, then shall be seven years of tribulation period. Early Church taught on Daniel 9:24-27 talk about Jesus Christ who made covenant with many through calvary already fulfilled 2000 years ago.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed,"Such a stance makes Jesus to be a liar."

Ed,

This is the basic problem with dispensationalists of your ilk. If I don't agree with your interpretation, I must believe Jesus is a liar, abominator, etc.

Was Jesus a liar when he said "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."(Mat. 24:34)? Of course, he MEANT "another generation yet to come" (though he didn't actually SAY that. I MUST accept your interpretation of the fig tree parable.

When he addressed this statement to his disciples ("ye" in verse 33), of course he really meant us.

So you don't accept that the Jewish wars were what Jesus referred to in 34:21, even though the context refers to "Judea" (v.16) and "the sabbath" (v. 20)--setting it in Israel. Instead, since more people died at other times in worldwide history--that is the only way one can understand the prophecy, otherwise, Jesus is a LIAR!

Come on, Ed. Just because I don't buy your eschatology, don't make wild accusations about the implications.

In Christ,

Tim

 

Tim, I wouldn't say you make Jesus a liar. I think you misunderstand him.

I covered this with grasshopper and others already. Jesus named a whole series of events. Then he says that this generation will not pass away until it all be completed. It is the generation that sees these events that will not pass away. That is what Christ actually said. He didn't name which specific generation (on a chronological scale) it would be.

 

I was a soph. in college. Probably sitting in church waiting to be raptured out of the world, after all 20 years ago we were also living in the "Last Days". Then a funny thing happened years later, I read the bible for myself and found out Heb:1:1-2 told me when the "Last Days" were. So here I am a burr in your saddle.
Go Sooners

 

DeafPosttrib: "Gentiles are now grafted into tree join with believing Jews together.

It is happening right now since Calvary - Romans 11:25."


Amen Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it!

Do you see in Romans 11:25 that the condition you describe will
end when "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"?

This is what dispensationism is all about, God's developing plan
for the Ages (Yes, God is God of the Ages!) has segments in
which people act different and God moves to save a maximun
number anyway.

DeafPosttrib: "I never saying that I omit Romans 11 from
the Bible. I agree with Romans chapter 11 very clear 100%."

You show you have a 15% understanding of Romans 11
from your statement above. You don't see very cleary.
Please note i refuse to say IMHO every sentence.
If one cannot tell opinions from facts, they aught not
to get into debate forums.

BTW, one does not have to say "I omit Romans 11" to omit Romans 11.
If one acts like they omit Romans 11, then i'll say "you omit
Romans 11".

Romans 11 clearly teaches that IN THIS AGE, the age right now,
God has one group of elect saints:
mostly gentile born-again, saved, redeamed "Bride of Christ", "Body of Christ",
Christian elect saints but including some Messanic Jews (Jews who believe
that Jesus is the MEssiah).

The whole purpose of the Tribulation Period that follows this age
is to win a maximum number of Israel to Jesus. What plan does God
have to win them? God will rapture his
mostly gentile born-again, saved, redeamed, "Bride of Christ", "Body of Christ",
Christian elect saints. God will allow the Antichrist and his
first half of the Tribulation Period buddy the Beast from the Land, the
False Prophet to arrage power (3.5 years). At the Mid-TRibulation crises,
the Antichrist will be slain (but magically recover), enter the
Temple in Jerusalem and commit the Abomination of Desolation (AOD).
When the Jews see the Antichrist committing the AOD they
will accept Jesus as their true Messiah (and thereby be saved).
The A/C will get rid of the False PRophet, after he is done with the
FP. Satan himself shall indwell the human Antichrist (not a machine,
not a deamon, not an alien from outer space).

All this detail has to be eliminated if you exclude
Romans 11 and Revelation 20, if you take 2 PEter 3:10 literally.
Why would you want to take 2 Peter 3:10 literally
when prophecy is figurative and the "summary" is a figure of speach?

In the Tribulation Period, the elect saints of our Blessed Lord
and Savior: Messiah Jesus will be
Jewish Israeli elect staints.

Now, the Bible never says "2 groups of elect saints".
But many people can count to two.

1. mostly gentile born-again, saved, redeamed "Bride of Christ", "Body of Christ",
Christian elect saints

2. Jewish Israeli elect staints

DeafPosttrib: "'All' does not mean ALL ... "

Listen to yourself
I got kicked out of one board for saying that ...
YOu are right, if i include all the CONTEXT and all you said.
"All" means every element of the described or implied set.

DeafPosttrib: "I never saying that I omit Revelation chapter 20 from the Bible."

You claim to be a-millinnial (amill), the Millinnial Kingdom of God
key reference is Revelation Chapter 20. QED: you omit Revelation
Chapter 20 from the Bible.

DeafPosttrib: "Early Church does not teaching ... "

This is almost impossible to prove. Do you have
an "Early Church was teaching ... " statement?
That is easy to prove. In fact, the early church believed
much like i do: Jesus is going to come get me before
the Tribulation period. The early church was premillinnial:
that Jesus would come back before the Millinnial Kingdom -
that both the Coming of Jesus and the Millinnial Kingdom are
physical events (and not JUST spiritual).
After about 325 AD when the Church got in bed with the State,
all who believed in premillinnial were slain. The premillinnial
believers came back as the third wave of reform during
the reformation period (that third waves of reform was called
Baptist). The a-mill viewpoint is an error of the apostate
un-church AKA: Roman Catholic Church.

DeafPosttrib: "There is no evidence anywhere
in the Bible saying seven year
of tribulation period."

YOu know i've been three years giving you the evidence.
YOu stay stuck on page one, i'd like to get you
over to page 30 where you have some hope.
There is no hope in the a-mill theory that says
the years AD33 to AD2004 (1,971 years) have all
been an extended tribulation period.

The earthquake of Revelation 6:14 moves the mountains,
the earthquake of Revelation 16:20 flattens the mountains.
The earthquake of Revelation 6:14 moves the islands,
the earthquake of Revelation 16:20 makes
the islands dissappear. Probably the earthquakes
of Revelation 16:20 are 1,000 times the size of the Revelation 6:14
earthquakes.
But the cyclic theory of Revelation says they are
the same earthquake ??? The "prophecies of the N.T. are
largely fulfilled" crowd cannot produce evidence of
a level 15 earthquake every happening, yet Revelation 6
describes a level 15 (that is like 1,000,000 killer level 9
earthquakes all at once) let alone a level 18 earthquake
1,000 times greater like described in Revealtion 16:20.

Tim: "This is the basic problem with dispensationalists of your ilk."

This statement smacks of predjudice,
i quite reading your post there.
I decline to be judged guilty without a trial.

Grasshopper: "What were you doing 20 years ago when i started
arguing pretrib on-line?"

Grasshopper: "I was a soph. in college. Probably sitting in church
waiting to be raptured out of the world, after all 20 years
ago we were also living in the "Last Days". Then a funny thing
happened years later, I read the bible for myself and found out Heb:1:1-2
told me when the "Last Days" were."

I learned 32 years before that how Peter says the "last days"
started in 33AD, see Acts 2:7.

Must have been some bad a-mill or postrib/premill teaching.
At the end of the Last Days, the Lord shall appear for His
own. The last days have been going on for 1,971 years now.
Maybe they will end soon? I hope so.

 

Ed,

You tell me what I believe makes Jesus a liar and an abominator--but I'm the one that's prejudiced.

Interesting take.

Tim

 

I said elsewhere i need to read
what i write before i send it along.
I don't recall where i said "what you believe".
I thought i was saying is if you logically
follow the path you set foot, you get
to making Jesus a liar and an abominator.

Can we discuss the topic at hand?
I find it much more interesting than
discussing Tim. Thank you.

---------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-20

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:21-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-20

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:21-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes not only the
immediate time before 70AD when the
AOD = abomination of desolation happened
(Matthe 24:15-2) but also all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.

Interesting, Jesus uses a retorical
devise: the polysyndeton, to make a
prophetic point.

Who said Jesus never said anything about
the pretribulation rapture?

We also note the recent discussion of
a problem with Matthew 24:34
and the denotation of "this generation".
By my understanding, denoted above,
"this generation" must be the generation
of Jewish Israeli elect saints
that is alive when the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection takes place.

 

So the term "last days" and "New Covenant" represent the same length of time correct? When preachers stand up and say we are living in the 'last days" they are just stating the obvious correct? Like a biology professor proclaiming to his class, "we breathe air".

So if we live in the "this age" of the NT writers, will there be sin in the "age to come"?

 

Ed,

I deleted the "prejudiced" first line of my previous post, so now you can read the rest:

Was Jesus a liar when he said "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."(Mat. 24:34)? Of course, he MEANT "another generation yet to come" (though he didn't actually SAY that. I MUST accept your interpretation of the fig tree parable.

When he addressed this statement to his disciples ("ye" in verse 33), of course he really meant us.

So you don't accept that the Jewish wars were what Jesus referred to in 34:21, even though the context refers to "Judea" (v.16) and "the sabbath" (v. 20)--setting it in Israel. Instead, since more people died at other times in worldwide history--that is the only way one can understand the prophecy, otherwise, Jesus is a LIAR!

Tim

 

So the term "last days" and "New Covenant" represent the same length of time correct? When preachers stand up and say we are living in the 'last days" they are just stating the obvious correct? Like a biology professor proclaiming to his class, "we breathe air".

</font>[/QUOTE]If the term "last days" actually just means a dispensation in history, then why is it often associated with a sense of urgency in the NT?

Also, we have an interesting comparison between Daniel and Revelation. God told Daniel the prophecy was "sealed up till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9), yet he told John, "seal not the prophecies of this book; for the time is at hand"(Rev. 22:10).

So there was no urgency 2461 years ago to reveal the prophecy, because the end was not near? But there suddenly was a sense of urgency 1971 years ago because the end was "at hand"?

If these time references only refer to a dispensation in history and have nothing to do with the time before they are fulfilled .... Explain?

Tim

 

I'll at least give it to Ed. He understands that the NT writers lived in the Last Days. He also understands the implications if they ended in the 1st century, so he carries them through the centuries like nothing ever happened. In essence rendering the term meaningless.

 

Here we go, Brother Grasshopper, a word study
of "AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).

The KJV tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calles them both "world".
So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.


Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

*souls shall be harvested at the end of this age

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

*Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
*the age has an end

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

*people will have eternal life, in the age to come

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
and are given in marriage.
35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

*there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

*this age has a disputer

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.

*the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
*the rules of this age will come to nothing

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine on them.

*the god of this age is NOT Jesus, the Christ

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age, according to the will
of our God and Father,

*this age is evil

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
and every name that is named, not only in this age
but also in that which is to come.

*there is an age to follow this age

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

* this age is dark

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
us richly all things to enjoy.

* this age has rich people in it

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This great section on the Security of the Believer
speaks of an "age to come".
* there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.

 

Thank you, but I know all that. You did however forget to answer the question. This is why which age we believe we are living in is so vital.

 

I'll at least give it to Ed. He understands that the NT writers lived in the Last Days. He also understands the implications if they ended in the 1st century, so he carries them through the centuries like nothing ever happened. In essence rendering the term meaningless. </font>[/QUOTE]Reminds me of
2 Peter 3:34 (nKJV):

knowing this first: that scoffers
will come in the last days, walking
according to their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise
of His coming? For since the fathers
fell asleep, all things continue as they
were from the beginning of creation."

Sorry, my friends, if Revelation
is a history book, then none of us are saved.
If Revelation has been largely fulfilled,
then none of us are saved. It is only
the grace of God that the N.T. prophecies
have not fulfilled the second coming
of our blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Yeshua.
For only by His tarrying are we found to
be saved.

Even so Lord Iesus: come quickly.

 

Evidently the apostles were preaching that Jesus was soon to appear. That is why the scoffers were asking "where is His promised coming?"

How in the world do you come up with that?

So who do I believe? Ed or the writer of Hebrews?

Heb 10:37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry .

I think I'll take the word of the writer of Hebrews.

Do you mean when He comes he'll come real fast?


So Ed, is there sin in the age to come?

 

Ed,

I will reply it back tomorrow night. Because I have to go to work tonight - 3rd shift.

By the way, you saying that I understand 15% of Romans 11.

I laughing so hard what you saying to me. You can't read in my mind. Only God can read in my mind. You cannot prove how much knowledge in my brain, because you cannot see through my brain. You are not x-ray. Only God can read through my brain, He is ominscience.

Anyway, I will reply it back toyou later tomorrow night about it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: "You cannot prove how much knowledge
in my brain, because you cannot see through my brain."

Don't need to get in your head, you left
your phosphor marks all over the place
What you say, what you write, what you do,
you are accountable for all of it. The devils
can read your actions to, they don't need to get
inside you. I'll pray some of them off.

ed: -----------------------------------------
Sorry, my friends, if Revelation
is a history book, then none of us are saved.
If Revelation has been largely fulfilled,
then none of us are saved.
---------------------------------------------

Grasshopper: "How in the world do you come up with that?"

It is NOT necessary to read the Bible that you
first turn off your mind.

Figure it out, Revelation ends with the destruction
of the heavens and the earth. If it is history, we now
live in heaven or hell. We live in a place where babies are raped.
We live in Hell, if Revelation is a history book.

Figure it out, Revelation ends with the destruction
of the heavens and the earth. If it is already fulfilled, we
live in heaven or hell. We live in a place where babies are raped.
We live in Hell, if Revelation is mostly fulfilled.

Ed: ------------------------------------
For only by His tarrying are we found to
be saved.
----------------------------------------
So who do I believe? Ed or the writer of Hebrews?

Tee Hee. You didn't recognize my summary of
2 Peter 3:9.
So which is right: 2 Peter 3:9 or Hebrews 10:37?

 

All very interesting, but I still haven't noticed any answers on my original post on judgment?
Also, when Jesus says (and it is written) that "the hour is coming, in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth" - including saved and lost, John 5:28-29,
this is not the word for "season," or "time" in general, but for a 60-minute or short, indefinite period of time, implying something sudden, when "ALL who are in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth." Did our Lord need to have His eschatology corrected by dispensationalism?
When I was a member of a dispensational group, in 1952-53 in college, I noticed an interesting thing: they usually set up an organized, logical system of doctrine, with Scripture references added but not quoted, but when I read those passages, somehow I couldn't find what they had to do with the logical statements! Don't we all tend to try to make the Scripture fit our system?
Maybe we would be better off if we reversed that.

Wishing you all His best till next Saturday night when I have a little free time - R. Charles Blair
- Romans 8:28